2018/19 Kurt Zouma

[MikeH72]

Hmm - not sure about this....

I think the reason you've had the reaction is comments such as 'he was actually very impressive in the few games he actually started for us...' which as you know isn't completely the case - if you consider the actual games he played and performances

I'm starting to feel like a broken record on this one - the guy came from Barca, isn't actually quite as impressive as hoped, has had injuries / needs to adapt etc / deserves time, but we'll have a gap without Zouma and can't rely on him - therefore will need Zouma or someone else...

Time will soon tell on this one

What the hell does this mean? In the games he played, his performances were mainly very good.

 

[sir_christoffee]

This may have to wait for January unless Kurt pushes for a transfer. With the Euros next year he needs to be playing regulary from week 1. The ball is in his court now.

 

[JimmyK]

What the hell does this mean? In the games he played, his performances were mainly very good.

I suppose it's just a matter of opinion. For me personally, he had a mix of good games and poor games, so I kind of take issue with the whole 'he didn't play much but when he did he was very good' line. He had 12 starts, I would say he was good (good as in worth commenting on) in the away Chelsea game, most of the home Chelsea game, and the away derby. I thought he wasn't very good at City, home to Watford, away at Brighton, or the half he played against Milwall. I didn't see Spurs away, I don't recall having a particularly strong opinion of him in any of the other games I saw so I assume he was OK. You can - and evidently do - disagree that he was poor in the four games I've mentioned, but my opinion is that he was. Just constantly repeating that he was good in the games he played won't change my opinion of what I saw, but it seems a lot of people want to do that. I am absolutely not saying he won't be brilliant this season, I am more than willing to believe that there's a lot more to come from him and there were many factors that would justify him not being brilliant last year, I just disagree that his performances were mainly good last year.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

What the hell does this mean? In the games he played, his performances were mainly very good.

I suppose it's just a matter of opinion. For me personally, he had a mix of good games and poor games, so I kind of take issue with the whole 'he didn't play much but when he did he was very good' line. He had 12 starts, I would say he was good (good as in worth commenting on) in the away Chelsea game, most of the home Chelsea game, and the away derby. I thought he wasn't very good at City, home to Watford, away at Brighton, or the half he played against Milwall. I didn't see Spurs away, I don't recall having a particularly strong opinion of him in any of the other games I saw so I assume he was OK. You can - and evidently do - disagree that he was poor in the four games I've mentioned, but my opinion is that he was. Just constantly repeating that he was good in the games he played won't change my opinion of what I saw, but it seems a lot of people want to do that. I am absolutely not saying he won't be brilliant this season, I am more than willing to believe that there's a lot more to come from him and there were many factors that would justify him not being brilliant last year, I just disagree that his performances were mainly good last year.

There seems to be an irrational bias to want to view YM's performances through rose tinted glasses - I wonder what's at the root of this?

 

[MikeH72]

I suppose it's just a matter of opinion. For me personally, he had a mix of good games and poor games, so I kind of take issue with the whole 'he didn't play much but when he did he was very good' line. He had 12 starts, I would say he was good (good as in worth commenting on) in the away Chelsea game, most of the home Chelsea game, and the away derby. I thought he wasn't very good at City, home to Watford, away at Brighton, or the half he played against Milwall. I didn't see Spurs away, I don't recall having a particularly strong opinion of him in any of the other games I saw so I assume he was OK. You can - and evidently do - disagree that he was poor in the four games I've mentioned, but my opinion is that he was. Just constantly repeating that he was good in the games he played won't change my opinion of what I saw, but it seems a lot of people want to do that. I am absolutely not saying he won't be brilliant this season, I am more than willing to believe that there's a lot more to come from him and there were many factors that would justify him not being brilliant last year, I just disagree that his performances were mainly good last year.

I do disagree mate and that’s fine. I think Zouma was poor in a higher portion of his games than Mina was in his.

 

[MikeH72]

There seems to be an irrational bias to want to view YM's performances through rose tinted glasses - I wonder what's at the root of this?

No there isn’t whatsoever. There’s a really strange thing going on where people want to be the first to write him off, however.

 

[JimmyK]

I do disagree mate and that’s fine. I think Zouma was poor in a higher portion of his games than Mina was in his.

I don't necessarily disagree with that.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

No there isn’t whatsoever. There’s a really strange thing going on where people want to be the first to write him off, however.

Not keen to write him off at all - all I'd said was that I didn't think we could rely on him as a first choice, hence needing a replacement

I'm sure we're all hoping he comes good and a solid first choice centre back

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

What the hell does this mean? In the games he played, his performances were mainly very good.

To ask what the 'hell' does this mean seems a bit OTT!

Is it unreasonable to suggest taking a view based on his actual performances?

You've stated above that they were 'mainly very good', but it's not quite clear what the basis of that view is...

Looking back at the ratings he received in matches for example, it's certainly a mixed picture. We'll give him leeway for the poor performances given his injuries and newness to the prem but it's obviously not enough to fully instill confidence. Hopefully he'll get a decent injury free run in the side

These are from Liverpool Echo - could look at other sources - no doubt the credibility of the source will be disputed but it at least goes some why to show why there might be some lingering doubts and nervousness about the departure of Zouma

Oppo	Date	Comp	Res	Appear	Rating	Very Good? (7+)
A - Tottenham	May 12, 2019	Prem	D 2-2	Started	6	N
H - Chelsea	Mar 17, 2019	Prem	W 2-0	Started	7	Y
A - Newcastle	Mar 9, 2019	Prem	L 3-2	Substitute	5	N
A - Millwall	Jan 26, 2019	FAC	L 3-2	Started	5	N
H - Lincoln City	Jan 5, 2019	FAC	W 2-1	Started	6	N
A - Brighton	Dec 29, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	6	N
A - Burnley	Dec 26, 2018	Prem	W 1-5	Started	8	Y
A - Man City	Dec 15, 2018	Prem	L 3-1	Started	4	N
H - Watford	Dec 10, 2018	Prem	D 2-2	Started	5	N
H - Newcastle	Dec 5, 2018	Prem	D 1-1	Started	7	Y
A - Liverpool	Dec 2, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	7	Y
H - Cardiff	Nov 24, 2018	Prem	W 1-0	Started	8	Y
A - Chelsea	Nov 11, 2018	Prem	D 0-0	Started	7	Y
					6.23	46.2%

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

No there isn’t whatsoever. There’s a really strange thing going on where people want to be the first to write him off, however.

To add, a selection of comments from those matches - reflects a mixed picture:

Good:

'He will have been massively disappointed to have not given Everton an early lead but, after a few jitters in the first half, he put in a solid and confident display at the heart of defence. Not a bad start to his time in royal blue at all.'

'All of Everton's three centre-backs were impressive, but Mina was the pick of the bunch – and not just because of his early goal to put the Blues in front. The Colombian international hardly put a foot wrong, making sure Burnley were nullified creatively and even effectively bringing the ball out from the back on numerous occasions.'

'He seems to just love tackling attackers. On multiple occasions he was vital in breaking down Cardiff attacks, and even embarked on some powerful 60-yard runs to try and aid the attack.'

Mixed:

'Looked a little rusty and erratic in the first half, which is understandable after his long break from starting a match. However, in the second period the Colombian international really came into his own and produced a solid barrier as Chelsea looked to break down the Blues' stern defence.'

'Everton's best performer in the first-half as he made a crucial block in his own six-yard box and defended intelligently. Emerged for the second period a different player. Booked for a clumsy tackle and handed Brighton a shooting opportunity with a poor pass from his own by-line. Subbed for Sigurdsson '64.'

'Faced a tumultuous first test in the Premier League and although there were several testing moments – notably his booking for catching Hazard and a deflection from a shot by the Belgian that almost looped past his own keeper – he came through generally unscathed.'

'Shook off a bit of rustiness as the first half wore on, but certainly didn't look too comfortable at all out there when the match got started. He will have been disappointed to have made a couple of mistakes which led to the opening goal, but recovered well and had a much better second period.'

Not so good:

'Brought on to sure things up but the floodgates opened on his watch.'

'A nervous re-introduction to the starting line-up for the big Colombian. Twice hesitated on the ball and lost possession in dangerous areas. Lost the original header for Millwall's equaliser and that simply can't happen. Replaced by Zouma at half-time after picking up a knock.'

'Gave away two silly fouls near his own goal – the second of which led to Lincoln's goal. Consistency remains an issue for the giant Colombian but improved as the game went on.'

'Gave the ball away and played everyone onside in the build-up to the first goal, and completely fell asleep to leave Sterling unmarked to bag the third. Didn't look comfortable at any stage throughout the match and won't enjoy watching this one back.'

'Picked up a needless booking for a handball in the box which could have proven very costly at the end of the first half after what was a poorly timed tackle on Success. Made come crucial blocks and interceptions, but played a part in switching off for both Watford goals.'

 

[JLW]

To ask what the 'hell' does this mean seems a bit OTT!

Is it unreasonable to suggest taking a view based on his actual performances?

You've stated above that they were 'mainly very good', but it's not quite clear what the basis of that view is...

Looking back at the ratings he received in matches for example, it's certainly a mixed picture. We'll give him leeway for the poor performances given his injuries and newness to the prem but it's obviously not enough to fully instill confidence. Hopefully he'll get a decent injury free run in the side

These are from Liverpool Echo - could look at other sources - no doubt the credibility of the source will be disputed but it at least goes some why to show why there might be some lingering doubts and nervousness about the departure of Zouma

Oppo	Date	Comp	Res	Appear	Rating	Very Good? (7+)
A - Tottenham	May 12, 2019	Prem	D 2-2	Started	6	N
H - Chelsea	Mar 17, 2019	Prem	W 2-0	Started	7	Y
A - Newcastle	Mar 9, 2019	Prem	L 3-2	Substitute	5	N
A - Millwall	Jan 26, 2019	FAC	L 3-2	Started	5	N
H - Lincoln City	Jan 5, 2019	FAC	W 2-1	Started	6	N
A - Brighton	Dec 29, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	6	N
A - Burnley	Dec 26, 2018	Prem	W 1-5	Started	8	Y
A - Man City	Dec 15, 2018	Prem	L 3-1	Started	4	N
H - Watford	Dec 10, 2018	Prem	D 2-2	Started	5	N
H - Newcastle	Dec 5, 2018	Prem	D 1-1	Started	7	Y
A - Liverpool	Dec 2, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	7	Y
H - Cardiff	Nov 24, 2018	Prem	W 1-0	Started	8	Y
A - Chelsea	Nov 11, 2018	Prem	D 0-0	Started	7	Y
					6.23	46.2%

Look at the months all them games are, pretty much the whole team and manager stunk the gaff out at that time. I would be surprised if any player apart from maybe Digne would have an average higher rating.

 

[JimmyK]

Look at the months all them games are, pretty much the whole team and manager stunk the gaff out at that time. I would be surprised if any player apart from maybe Digne would have an average higher rating.

That’s perfectly fair, but I don’t think he’s ever suggested otherwise. All he’s saying is that claiming Mina was ‘very impressive’ and ‘very good’ as people have in the last few posts is definitely debatable.

 

[Brisan123]

Absolutely, but imo is much more suited to playing alongside a real athlete like Zouma, rather than someone like Keane.

The Sanchez (who is very similar in physique,playing style and attributes)and Mina partnership works very well for Colombia

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Look at the months all them games are, pretty much the whole team and manager stunk the gaff out at that time. I would be surprised if any player apart from maybe Digne would have an average higher rating.

Well - prepare to be surprised - Zouma scored higher over the season and on the whole in the games the two of them played together

Perhaps, in fact, not surprising given Zouma's general solidness and dependability. I haven't pasted them in but this is generally reflected in the comments relating to his performances also. Of course some bad games and errors here and there, but not quite the howlers that have been identified in some of Mina's performances

Zouma's scores for the season:

Oppo	Date	Comp	Res	Appear	Rating	Very Good? (7+)
A - Tottenham	May 12, 2019	Prem	D 2-2	Started	7	Y
H - Burnley	May 3, 2019	Prem	W 2-0	Started	9	Y
A - C Palace	Apr 27, 2019	Prem	D 0-0	Started	7	Y
H - Man United	Apr 21, 2019	Prem	W 4-0	Started	8	Y
A - Fulham	Apr 13, 2019	Prem	L 2-0	Started	5	N
H - Arsenal	Apr 7, 2019	Prem	W 1-0	Started	8	Y
A - West Ham	Mar 30, 2019	Prem	W 0-2	Started	8	Y
A - Newcastle	Mar 9, 2019	Prem	L 3-2	Started	6	N
H - Liverpool	Mar 3, 2019	Prem	D 0-0	Started	7	Y
A - Watford	Feb 9, 2019	Prem	L 1-0	Started	8	Y
H - Man City	Feb 6, 2019	Prem	L 0-2	Started	8	Y
H - Wolves	Feb 2, 2019	Prem	L 1-3	Started	6	N
A - Huddersfield	Jan 29, 2019	Prem	W 0-1	Started	6	N
A - Millwall	Jan 26, 2019	FAC	L 3-2	Substitute	6	N
A - Southampton	Jan 19, 2019	Prem	L 2-1	Started	6	N
H - Bournemouth	Jan 13, 2019	Prem	W 2-0	Started	7	Y
H - Lincoln City	Jan 5, 2019	FAC	W 2-1	Started	6	N
H - Leicester	Jan 1, 2019	Prem	L 0-1	Started	7	Y
A - Brighton	Dec 29, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	7	Y
A - Burnley	Dec 26, 2018	Prem	W 1-5	Started	7	Y
H - Tottenham	Dec 23, 2018	Prem	L 2-6	Started	3	N
A - Man City	Dec 15, 2018	Prem	L 3-1	Started	7	Y
H - Newcastle	Dec 5, 2018	Prem	D 1-1	Started	7	Y
H - Brighton	Nov 3, 2018	Prem	W 3-1	Started	7	Y
A - Man United	Oct 28, 2018	Prem	L 2-1	Started	6	N
H - C Palace	Oct 21, 2018	Prem	W 2-0	Started	6	N
A - Leicester	Oct 6, 2018	Prem	W 1-2	Started	7	Y
H - Southampton	Oct 2, 2018	CC	L (3) 1-(4) 1	Started	6	N
H - Fulham	Sep 29, 2018	Prem	W 3-0	Started	7	Y
A - Arsenal	Sep 23, 2018	Prem	L 2-0	Started	6	N
H - West Ham	Sep 16, 2018	Prem	L 1-3	Started	5	N
H - Huddersfield	Sep 1, 2018	Prem	D 1-1	Started	8	Y
H - Rotherham	Aug 29, 2018	CC	W 3-1	Started	6	N
					6.7	57.6%

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Look at the months all them games are, pretty much the whole team and manager stunk the gaff out at that time. I would be surprised if any player apart from maybe Digne would have an average higher rating.

Looking at the months that the games were in, here's a comparison of Mina and Zouma's ratings, when they played in the same matches

Zouma scored equal or higher than Mina in all but one match

I believe Zouma benefited over the season from the run of games and certainly his form was excellent towards the end of the season. Mina hopefully will improve following a run in the team

Of course, also, part of being a succesful pro footballer is staying injury free and we have to wonder why he is injury prone - hopefully that won't continue...

Oppo	Date	Comp	Res	Appear	Rating - Mina	Rating - Zouma
A - Tottenham	May 12, 2019	Prem	D 2-2	Started	6	7
A - Newcastle	Mar 9, 2019	Prem	L 3-2	Substitute	5	6
A - Millwall	Jan 26, 2019	FAC	L 3-2	Started	5	6
H - Lincoln City	Jan 5, 2019	FAC	W 2-1	Started	6	6
A - Brighton	Dec 29, 2018	Prem	L 1-0	Started	6	7
A - Burnley	Dec 26, 2018	Prem	W 1-5	Started	8	7
A - Man City	Dec 15, 2018	Prem	L 3-1	Started	4	7
H - Newcastle	Dec 5, 2018	Prem	D 1-1	Started	7	7
Average					5.88	6.63