Cycling thread

From a business and marketing pov it makes little sense to support a cycling team in a non-traditional country (with Sky I think one of the reasons was that one of the sons of Murdoch is a big cycling fan and he lost his seat with the Comcast take-over + they have more than achieved their original objectives); I don't agree with Tinkov a lot but he was right when he said that sponsoring cycling is the equivalent of throwing money in a bottomless pit with little return; they can make changes that will help but that will take a long time...

How's your CX season going?
Season going great thanks Armel - especially now the proper weather is here, racing most weekends - think I've done about 10 races thus far.

Courses are hugely variable at grass roots level which is part of the appeal, always keeps it interesting. Done some that were basically grass-crits - 100% on it for 50 min, others way more technical and varied, more off and on so you can be more tactical. Did the N or Eng champs at a place in Bradford that is often the venue for any UCI CX race that takes place in the UK - that was a tough course. Type of course were blokes were running with the bike downhill as it was too tricky to ride clean. Great experience but I had a bike problem (thankfully rare this year), burped a tubeless tire, that meant I finished way down. The winner of my vets race won the world age group masters in Molde the day before (think you get a rainbow jersey for that), got the overnight ferry back, to win this one.

Results have sort of topped out around the 40th percentile, give or take. Had a decent one last weekend - 24th out of 55 which sounds similar but it was savage weather, so only the hardmen showed up. 1 or 2 degrees, freezing rain, and a driving wind :) Pre-road the course then sat in the car listening to us getting beat by City whilst the earlier races went round, felt like an act of will to get out in race kit and line up. Of course once the whistle goes it's fine and you don't notice the weather as much.
 

i wouldn't argue that the sign up hot young talent, but the accusation is that their financial clout has allowed them to buy up the best talent in the world. As we can see with football, there's a big difference between buying established talent and buying young talent that still needs developing. The fact that few riders have left Sky and done better suggests it's a decent environment for developing as a rider. Just as if you were a young classics rider you'd want to go to Quikstep, I imagine if you were a young GT rider, Sky would be your team of choice.

Tbf they sometimes do; look at the whole Sosa saga. He had agreed a contract with Trek (without actually signing the thing); Trek already paid an amount to his original team. He changes agents; some say because of Sky swooping in; they pay substantially more money to his original team (including the amount they have to return to Trek). And they are offering Sosa a whole lot more money than Trek. They pay non-market conform salaries. They buy/or attempt to buy most of the known GT talents.

Lefevre (the manager of not exactly one of the poorest teams) always says that if Sky comes knocking that he has to let them go since it's impossible to rival them on a financial level. You can earn more money being a Sky helper than a leader in quite a lot of teams. They handed Kwiatkowski an extremely generous contract. Or young cyclists like Dombrowski or Boswell (not exactly mega talents) get offered a simple neo-prof contract by most teams; Sky pays them three times the amount. Very temping.

That not a lot of riders leave Sky and do good is correct; if you ride for the best team in a certain specialisation there are heaps of advantages, one being that it's very hard to endure the pressure of being a team leader, not everyone is cut out for that + if you're part of such a strong team you can scrape some smaller wins because of the strength of the team. It's similar with Quickstep, you have lads wanting to leave to become the leader elsewhere, some do nothing noteworthy after leaving. Still, the financial aspect is one thing, but if you want to become an undisputed leader I'd leave; even if it means taking a financial hit. Plus most teams are less hierarchic and let you do your thing more.
 
Tbf they sometimes do; look at the whole Sosa saga. He had agreed a contract with Trek (without actually signing the thing); Trek already paid an amount to his original team. He changes agents; some say because of Sky swooping in; they pay substantially more money to his original team (including the amount they have to return to Trek). And they are offering Sosa a whole lot more money than Trek. They pay non-market conform salaries. They buy/or attempt to buy most of the known GT talents.

Lefevre (the manager of not exactly one of the poorest teams) always says that if Sky comes knocking that he has to let them go since it's impossible to rival them on a financial level. You can earn more money being a Sky helper than a leader in quite a lot of teams. They handed Kwiatkowski an extremely generous contract. Or young cyclists like Dombrowski or Boswell (not exactly mega talents) get offered a simple neo-prof contract by most teams; Sky pays them three times the amount. Very temping.

That not a lot of riders leave Sky and do good is correct; if you ride for the best team in a certain specialisation there are heaps of advantages, one being that it's very hard to endure the pressure of being a team leader, not everyone is cut out for that + if you're part of such a strong team you can scrape some smaller wins because of the strength of the team. It's similar with Quickstep, you have lads wanting to leave to become the leader elsewhere, some do nothing noteworthy after leaving. Still, the financial aspect is one thing, but if you want to become an undisputed leader I'd leave; even if it means taking a financial hit. Plus most teams are less hierarchic and let you do your thing more.

Sure, they've secured Sosa down to the money they gave them, but they also developed Froome and Thomas into the riders they are. By and large they don't have any of the top GT riders from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain, who have always been the traditional powers of the sport. They don't have any from Australia or America either. We're really only looking at Froome, Thomas and possibly Bernal as GC options for them, which is no more than Movistar have. I don't dispute that Sky have a lot of financial clout, but it's up to the other teams to improve rather than dragging Sky down to their level.
 
Sure, they've secured Sosa down to the money they gave them, but they also developed Froome and Thomas into the riders they are. By and large they don't have any of the top GT riders from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain, who have always been the traditional powers of the sport. They don't have any from Australia or America either. We're really only looking at Froome, Thomas and possibly Bernal as GC options for them, which is no more than Movistar have. I don't dispute that Sky have a lot of financial clout, but it's up to the other teams to improve rather than dragging Sky down to their level.

Spoken like a true free marketeer, if someone is monopolizing something through sheer power of having twice the capital as anyone else, there is little you can do. Personally I find it odd to champion such a tactic as if they are raising everyone's game and suggesting a more level playing field is dragging sky down to other teams lowly unacceptable level. To win by such means is cynical, lacks innovation and in my eyes takes a lot of the romance out of the spectacle. You yourself derided Thomas's win as simply riding the sky chain.

No matter, though as sky have finished their overblown marketing campaign, and the sport will be better for it, at least in this fans eyes
 
Spoken like a true free marketeer, if someone is monopolizing something through sheer power of having twice the capital as anyone else, there is little you can do. Personally I find it odd to champion such a tactic as if they are raising everyone's game and suggesting a more level playing field is dragging sky down to other teams lowly unacceptable level. To win by such means is cynical, lacks innovation and in my eyes takes a lot of the romance out of the spectacle. You yourself derided Thomas's win as simply riding the sky chain.

No matter, though as sky have finished their overblown marketing campaign, and the sport will be better for it, at least in this fans eyes

The other teams need to get on their bike.
 

Sure, they've secured Sosa down to the money they gave them, but they also developed Froome and Thomas into the riders they are. By and large they don't have any of the top GT riders from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain, who have always been the traditional powers of the sport. They don't have any from Australia or America either. We're really only looking at Froome, Thomas and possibly Bernal as GC options for them, which is no more than Movistar have. I don't dispute that Sky have a lot of financial clout, but it's up to the other teams to improve rather than dragging Sky down to their level.

They did it to almost every top-talent (not all for GT's; the majority is though) of the last years. Look at their line-up: Bernal, Dunbar, Ganna, Hart, Halvorsen, Lawless, I suppose I could still count Moscon, Narvaez, Sivakov, Sosa. Quite a few of them they 'bought', in a cycling transfer way.

I imagine they don't enjoy servitude, and some prefer riding for a 'national' team. E.g: the French, you might get them to ride for a Belgian team if it involves classics, but generally that is about as far as they'll go unless their uncle is a team manager or something. No but they have literally almost every GC hopeful for the future. What's to develop, if you can't obtain them? There are a few in the peloton that maybe have the potential that are not within Sky's tentacles but they are not easy pickings. Some even have their own youth teams, but they are not safe there and a fee, like in football, isn't always guaranteed since the cycling transfer system is backwards.

It's easier if Sky goes off to find another sport to transform, I don't care which one, maybe curling idk. They have a 35-40 million € budget; in football terms that's nothing, but for cycling that's a lot. Last year Katoesha had the second largest budget, quite funny since they ended up second last in the WT team ranking. Movistar; 15 mill €, Quickstep 18 mil €, Sunweb only 13 mil etc... There's not a lot of budget left if you take into account that Quintana and Valverve both earn around 2 mil € / year (far too little for Valverde if you compare to other riders) and Landa will also be quite costly, not a lot left to play with. Same with Sunweb and Dumoulin etc...

You can hardly expect more; e.g. Quickstep is sponsored by a company that fabricates kitchens, a company that makes hardwood floors, and a rich Czech called Bakala. Unless you're expecting the sudden arrival of companies like Inbev etc, there's really not a lot the others can do in finding more money (well in fairness apparently the rich Middle-Eastern states have all had a major budget increase this year- I can't find how much exactly though, but if you're looking at the riders they're getting I expect it to be a lot). Unless you start tampering with the entire model.
 
According to Stybar Van Aert is having such a horrible season since he's saving himself for the spring classics. He thinks he'll get better from January onwards, especially in Denmark. In his view it's quite impossible to be on the top of your game for such a long period (so combining both disciplines is very difficult; they are thinking of creating an overarching classifcation for CX and road cycling, would be quite interesting since I think maybe only 2 percent of the road peloton has the necessary technical skills).

Yesterday he rode in Zolder (21, not that bad if you considerer he had to start from the back). Always liked Stybar, mostly because he's a friendly person.
 
Jess Varnish (track cyclist) lost her case against British Cycling today - she was looking to establish that she was an employee, and could then sue them for wrongful dismissal / sexual discrimination. Ruling handed out that she was not an employee, and lottery support is more like a university grant. Could be quite a landmark case given the number of athletes supported in this way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46890146
 
Didn't get a place in the Fred Whitton for 2019, so entered the Etape du Dales instead - never ridden round there so should be good experience (weather permitting). Meant to be a pretty tough route - 110 miles, 9000 ft climbing, couple of fierce hills (Buttertubs, Fleet moss) but doesn't have the off-the-scale stuff like Honister or Hardknott.
Not planning on a big training regime - just enough to get the legs and backside conditioned to the distance.
 

Picked up this at the weekend at waterstones - quite funny if you like that velominati style but tbh you'd get the same sort of content just reading their website. Lot of Belgians on the list, as one would expect - Eddy Merckx and Sean Kelly get two entries. Didn't know Beryl Burton worked full time on a rhubarb farm.

9781781256138.jpg
 
Will you go and watch the Tour stage 1 this year Armel? Commemorating the GoaT 50th anniversary of his first Tour win, starting in Brussels. I imagine it will be hard to avoid around that time in Belgium.
Merckx was from Brussels itself so wouldn't be considered Flandrian or Wallonian in particular?
 
Will you go and watch the Tour stage 1 this year Armel? Commemorating the GoaT 50th anniversary of his first Tour win, starting in Brussels. I imagine it will be hard to avoid around that time in Belgium.
Merckx was from Brussels itself so wouldn't be considered Flandrian or Wallonian in particular?

Yes I will be going, will be fun.

The bold part is a touchy subject I wouldn't touch that irl if I were you.

Merckx is Flemish originally, although he purely identifies as a Belgian. Below a Merckx quote and you must remember the language frontiers etc were all quite different when he was growing up. There was also the Frenchification of Brussels etc... Originally quite a Flemish town but it Frenchified for all sorts of reasons. Still a very touchy subject amongst Flemish, not only nationalists. It's especially an issue for the towns around Brussels (the Flemish belt). You still have yearly manifestations etc (mostly in the form of a cycling ride), you still can get (serious) legal problems when using the wrong language in a public function (e.g: a debate in a legal council), or sending around official communications etc...

The language laws are quite complicated (and a goldmine for lawyers). Like the municipalities with language facilities, where there is a possibility to use the other language but you have to officially file a request etc. Also the reason why Flanders refuses to ratify the minority treaty. It's no laughing matter, people still take it serious. It all stems from (passed) oppression but it still has an impact on a lot of people today (well tbf it was serious; e.g: for a long time all legal proceedings were in French, and if you only speak Flemish that's quite an issue since you can't defend yourself). A contemporary example; take my father (and quite a few of his generation), he's fluent in French, he will refuse to use the language depending on the linguistical area he's in. Foreigners are exempted off course; if you're genuinely French (you can hear that), he'll speak French, but not to a Walloon (unless he's in such an area). It's different for my generation, I'm fluent in French, I honestly don't care about utilising French. Pff it's different nowadays also, they at least try to speak Flemish. I got bigger fish to fry.

Today's reality (and for quite some time tbh) is that a lot of French speaking people (In Brussels and areas around the border) send their kids to Flemish schools (they are among the best in Europe, the schools of the French community are just horrible - if possible because Flemish children have priority, an added bonus you get more money if you send your children to Flemish schools since child benefits related to education are a regionalized competence and they pay out more). The power has since long shifted, but the Flemish part still acts a bit as an aggrieved minority (simplification: reality isn't as simple).

The Merkcx' quote:

"Ik mag dan al een Vlaming van oorsprong zijn, ik heb school gelopen in het Frans. En dat was een verrijking. Toen men mij destijds na een wedstrijd vroeg of ik Vlaming of Waal was, antwoordde ik altijd Ik ben een echte Belg. En zo voel ik het nog altijd aan."

Translation: "I might be Flemish originally. I've done my school in French. And that was an enrichment. When, at the time, they asked after a race if I was Flemish or a Walloon, I always responded with I'm a real Belgian. And it still feels that way today."

It's that way for a lot of our athletes tbf; you have no explicit Flemish or Walloon athletes. That's about the thing we agree about the most. Like Gilbert, added bonus is that his Flemish is perfect. Or Thiam, Hazard ... Identity is also becoming increasingly difficult nowadays. Even for simple players like De Bruyne; yes he's from Gent so Flemish (and his French is horrible) but his mum was born in Burundi and she lived in Easling for quite a time and has English family etc... Same with van Aert. His father is a Dutchman (hence the little v; if it was a Flemish surname it would have been Van Aert - now it's van Aert). Courtois (Flemish mother, Walloon Father). Carrasco (Spanish mum; Portuguese father). I could go on really...

Oh and you also have the confusing cases, like Brel (one of my favourite artists), he identified as a French speaking Flemish person (as was his family) even though he was relatively progressive for the time since he learned the language starting age 12 (in that time the bourgeoisie didn't speak Flemish/for all sorts of reasons really it was seen as beneath them etc... - you still have a few of them left but they are a dying breed). Always funny; when there's one of them in front of you at the baker's and she goes "Il fait beau aujourd'hui" in just about the worst possible accent; usually very old, so you know she can speak Flemish but just refuses to.

Not necessarily only athletes, while we're at it, the most popular politician in Flanders is Charles Michel (a Walloon liberal and the PM). That's one of the mistakes a lot of the foreign correspondents make. Take that Boffey fellow from the Guardian, he honestly isn't very good at what he does - very frustrating to read. Most people don't vote for NVA because they want Flemish independence, you would easily lose that referendum (they've toned that down btw recently- they realized it wasn't helping them now they are going for confederacy but irl that will not be the case- almost election time), they vote for them because they have a relatively right-wing economic agenda and they are currently the best way to keep the Walloon PS in line. I don't vote for them btw.
 
A deep subject Armel - thks for the post. Merckx was clearly a uniting figure - and is a Baron, in fact.

For cycling, though, surely the Flemish or Walloon identity is very explicit (I see how it isn't a big deal for footballers etc) The Flandrian hardman image is unequivocally connected with the classics more than any other group of people, cyclocross is absolutely Flemish - couldn't name a top level Walloon crosser tbh. I'm not talking about Flemish nationalism or anything like that, but everyone knows Flanders is the Mesopotamia of bike racing.
 

Welcome

Join Grand Old Team to get involved in the Everton discussion. Signing up is quick, easy, and completely free.

Shop

Back
Top