Ronald Koeman discussion

[ijjysmith]

I would have to disagree.

He hasn't spent that much in the great scheme of things.

he has replaced, overhauled, but there was a hell of a lot of dross when he took over.

His big money spends, Bolasie, Klaassen, Schneiderlin, Gylfi, Keane, Pickford are all players who realistically should have improved us from what we had.

His lesser buys (fee wise) Sandro, Rooney, Gana, Williams, Vlasic etc are very much a mixed bag.

Rooney was a gamble, Sandro could easily still come good, Gana was an excellent and cheap buy, Vlasic looks like he is going to be a good one.

All still big improvements on what we had when he took over, such as Kone, McGeady etc

I think you've nailed half the problem.

The players should be better than the ones we had previously...but are they performing like they are? Nope.

 

[Thomasc]

I think you've nailed half the problem.

The players should be better than the ones we had previously...but are they performing like they are? Nope.

Agreed.

We can all see what one of the the main problems is and for me it is very simple, too many similar players and a complete lack of pace.

Even though I am not Barkley's biggest fan, he does add a bit of a dynamic to the side that is currently missing, same goes for Coleman and of course Bolasie.

 

[MickA]

The farce around not signing a recognised CF has certainly added to our issues but from the outside we cannot possibly know what went on.

What we do know if that we have a squad that somebody being paid £6m pa to motivate and get results with and he's failing massively on that score.

 

[Lanolin]

I would have to disagree.

He hasn't spent that much in the great scheme of things.

he has replaced, overhauled, but there was a hell of a lot of dross when he took over.

His big money spends, Bolasie, Klaassen, Schneiderlin, Gylfi, Keane, Pickford are all players who realistically should have improved us from what we had.

His lesser buys (fee wise) Sandro, Rooney, Gana, Williams, Vlasic etc are very much a mixed bag.

Rooney was a gamble, Sandro could easily still come good, Gana was an excellent and cheap buy, Vlasic looks like he is going to be a good one.

All still big improvements on what we had when he took over, such as Kone, McGeady etc

See I just don't get this argument.

I honestly don't think the squad now is better than the one he took over, and I don't think many outside observers would say it is either. He took over a side with Lukaku, Stones, Deulofeu and Barkley. Assuming Barkley goes, I think we've downgraded in each of those 4 positions.

While players like Kone, Oviedo and Cleverley were certainly underwhelming for us, what have we replaced them with? In Oviedo's case, nobody. I'd rather him as cover at left back than nobody. Cleverley is now at Watford and quite comfortably outperforming Klaassen so far. Kone scored 7 goals in Martinez's last season, how many players look like they'll beat that total this year? Rooney and err... nobody else.

Koeman took over a side which had some excellent players and some average ones. The side lacked balance and discipline, but I felt like a couple of additions in the right areas and some proper coaching and we'd be a real force. Now I think we still lack balance and still need proper coaching, but where is the quality? We have good players, but do we have any real stars? The type of player you can see playing for City, Barcelona or United like the last lot do now? I don't think so.

 

[Thomasc]

See I just don't get this argument.

I honestly don't think the squad now is better than the one he took over, and I don't think many outside observers would say it is either. He took over a side with Lukaku, Stones, Deulofeu and Barkley. Assuming Barkley goes, I think we've downgraded in each of those 4 positions.

While players like Kone, Oviedo and Cleverley were certainly underwhelming for us, what have we replaced them with? In Oviedo's case, nobody. I'd rather him as cover at left back than nobody. Cleverley is now at Watford and quite comfortably outperforming Klaassen so far. Kone scored 7 goals in Martinez's last season, how many players look like they'll beat that total this year? Rooney and err... nobody else.

Koeman took over a side which had some excellent players and some average ones. The side lacked balance and discipline, but I felt like a couple of additions in the right areas and some proper coaching and we'd be a real force. Now I think we still lack balance and still need proper coaching, but where is the quality? We have good players, but do we have any real stars? The type of player you can see playing for City, Barcelona or United like the last lot do now? I don't think so.

We are weaker up front without Lukaku, that is something which cannot be disputed.

As for the other 3, Keane could easily go on and be considered a more than adequate replacement for Stones, especially defensively.

Del was a bit pile of nothingness and if Gylfi kicks in and performs as we know he can, he is easily a replacement for Barkley's input.

Comparing Cleverley with Klaassen is being quite selective. I could compare him with Gana just for the sake of comparing a body and I know who I would rather have.

 

[MercuryBlue88]

Alot of the transfers whether picked by Walsh or Koeman, have been the incorrect choices. Only pickford, keane, snides (although out of form) and gana were actually improvements on the players previously in those positions. The rest have been same level or expensive downgrades. Beginning to miss Dithering Daves Due Diligence.

 

[blueblue]

I think the next three or four games are crucial for RK and I do not believe that he is very close to being sacked just yet... but certainly his position is far from secure.

I think that many of this summers signings will prove to be really good value over time and already we can see that in Pickford, Keane and Vlasic.
I think that Sandro and Klaasen can only be judged after a decent settling in period and could very easily still prove to be good signings.

I am relieved we didn't get Giroud (even though we badly need a centre forward) as I believe he has the pace and work rate that our team cries out for so badly.

I don't blame RK for Stones and Lukaku leaving as they both made it perfectly clear they did not want to stay. I assume the same is true of Barkley but there is a chance that his desire to leave is a personal issue between himself and the manager and that may change with somebody else in charge....although I am far from convinced of that.

Ironically, in spite of the doom and gloom around the club we are still one good centre forward away from having a very good squad and above all this is where RK has failed. It is incredible to think that this was allowed happen and from my point of view incredible that our two top targets were Sigurdsson and Giroud.... that is actually what worries me most about RK.

 

[BernieWright13]

See I just don't get this argument.

I honestly don't think the squad now is better than the one he took over, and I don't think many outside observers would say it is either. He took over a side with Lukaku, Stones, Deulofeu and Barkley. Assuming Barkley goes, I think we've downgraded in each of those 4 positions.

While players like Kone, Oviedo and Cleverley were certainly underwhelming for us, what have we replaced them with? In Oviedo's case, nobody. I'd rather him as cover at left back than nobody. Cleverley is now at Watford and quite comfortably outperforming Klaassen so far. Kone scored 7 goals in Martinez's last season, how many players look like they'll beat that total this year? Rooney and err... nobody else.

Koeman took over a side which had some excellent players and some average ones. The side lacked balance and discipline, but I felt like a couple of additions in the right areas and some proper coaching and we'd be a real force. Now I think we still lack balance and still need proper coaching, but where is the quality? We have good players, but do we have any real stars? The type of player you can see playing for City, Barcelona or United like the last lot do now? I don't think so.

Good point actually. Hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Lanolin]

We are weaker up front without Lukaku, that is something which cannot be disputed.

As for the other 3, Keane could easily go on and be considered a more than adequate replacement for Stones, especially defensively.

Del was a bit pile of nothingness and if Gylfi kicks in and performs as we know he can, he is easily a replacement for Barkley's input.

Comparing Cleverley with Klaassen is being quite selective. I could compare him with Gana just for the sake of comparing a body and I know who I would rather have.

Keane could go on and be better than Stones, of course. I'm just saying that I don't think that he currently is or has shown anything to suggest he will be. As I said, he's good, but I don't think he has anywhere near the ceiling of Stones, who I think has the potential to be genuinely world class.

Del was a big pile of nothingness who got the crowd off their seats, got a lot of assists, and now plays his football for one of the best club sides in the world and one of the best national sides in the world. You'll forgive me for doubting that Yannick Bolasie will ever do the same.

I don't think Sigurdsson will ever be as good an all round footballer as Barkley, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Barkley is looking likely to 'trade up' by moving to a side above us while Sigurdsson wasn't courted by any of the top sides over the summer. Again, he's a good player, but do you think many people look at him and think he'll be the man to take us to the next level? I don't.

I don't see how the Klaassen/Cleverley comparison is selective at all. Gana didn't take Cleverley's position in the squad did he, he took McCarthy's. Klaassen has come into the side as a 'link' player who takes up one of the more advanced midfield roles and is tasked with getting on the ball and linking play - like Cleverley. Gana has been a good signing, like Keane, Pickford and others will be I'm sure. I'm not saying Koeman has only bought bad players, just that my honest opinion is that we're probably further away from progressing to a top 4 challenge now than we were when he took over.

 

[blueblue]

Good point actually. Hadn't thought of it that way.

But, the manager can hardly be blamed for Stones and Lukaku leaving.
Deulofeu has once again stalled in his career.

Barkley is the one player that may not have been handled well by RK, but Barkley's career had started to stutter before RK arrived and to be fair some of the best performances we saw from Barkley were after harsh words from RK.

 

[Lanolin]

But, the manager can hardly be blamed for Stones and Lukaku leaving.
Deulofeu has once again stalled in his career.

Barkley is the one player that may not have been handled well by RK, but Barkley's career had started to stutter before RK arrived and to be fair some of the best performances we saw from Barkley were after harsh words from RK.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Bet he was devoed to be playing Atletico Madrid on Saturday night instead of getting ready to sit on the bench at the Amex.

 

[Thomasc]

Keane could go on and be better than Stones, of course. I'm just saying that I don't think that he currently is or has shown anything to suggest he will be. As I said, he's good, but I don't think he has anywhere near the ceiling of Stones, who I think has the potential to be genuinely world class.

Del was a big pile of nothingness who got the crowd off their seats, got a lot of assists, and now plays his football for one of the best club sides in the world and one of the best national sides in the world. You'll forgive me for doubting that Yannick Bolasie will ever do the same.

I don't think Sigurdsson will ever be as good an all round footballer as Barkley, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Barkley is looking likely to 'trade up' by moving to a side above us while Sigurdsson wasn't courted by any of the top sides over the summer. Again, he's a good player, but do you think many people look at him and think he'll be the man to take us to the next level? I don't.

I don't see how the Klaassen/Cleverley comparison is selective at all. Gana didn't take Cleverley's position in the squad did he, he took McCarthy's. Klaassen has come into the side as a 'link' player who takes up one of the more advanced midfield roles and is tasked with getting on the ball and linking play - like Cleverley. Gana has been a good signing, like Keane, Pickford and others will be I'm sure. I'm not saying Koeman has only bought bad players, just that my honest opinion is that we're probably further away from progressing to a top 4 challenge now than we were when he took over.

To be honest it's just opinions and all about current form, which in the case of some of these players is as fickle as you get. Wasn't that long ago Stones was looking like a complete liability for Man City, now the team are performing he is a worldy all of a sudden agan.

Barkley - More average games than top drawer, as far as stats tell us he scored and assisted far fewer than Gylfi last season, but now we are struggling, Gylfi is struggling, thus imo making Barkley's absence a much bigger deal than it actually is. Though don't get me wrong, as I wrote earlier at least he would offer something different to the tepid predictability of the current style of play.

Yes Del has gone back to Barcelona, which you have to think means they value him highly. So far he has not completed 90 minutes in a game for them, his contribution is 2 assists and I am willing to bet it will be a short romance.

Yes Klaassen is a more direct comparison to Cleverley I suppose, I am not going to dispute that.

 

[Kenshin]

Still think it's quite funny that we went out and signed a brilliant youngish attacking midfielder who could press, hard working, scored and assisted , a leader on the pitch, a winner, every quality we were looking for in a new signing.

Then signed 3 more who play in the exact same position. Never mind being ambitious and trusting a team , how are half the new signings meant to settle and develop a trust on the pitch when they can't even get a game?

 

[BernieWright13]

But, the manager can hardly be blamed for Stones and Lukaku leaving.
Deulofeu has once again stalled in his career.

Barkley is the one player that may not have been handled well by RK, but Barkley's career had started to stutter before RK arrived and to be fair some of the best performances we saw from Barkley were after harsh words from RK.

I agree about Koeman being unable to prevent Stones or Lukaku leaving. And Ross along with Dela have frequently frustrated. But surely its not too much to have hoped for that a manager on soft lad's kind of salary could have got something approaching the best out of those two (not to mention the rest of this hastily and expensively assembled squad?). This bloke seems to prefer falling out with them. My worry is that Lookman and even Davies may go the same way the longer the clown stays. I've criticized Barkely's lack of progress myself, but things have got so bad that at the moment I'd be thrilled to see him commit and stay under a new regime while we get rid of some of the dross we seem to have acquired instead. Rooney included.

 

[Lanolin]

To be honest it's just opinions and all about current form, which in the case of some of these players is as fickle as you get. Wasn't that long ago Stones was looking like a complete liability for Man City, now the team are performing he is a worldy all of a sudden agan.

Barkley - More average games than top drawer, as far as stats tell us he scored and assisted far fewer than Gylfi last season, but now we are struggling, Gylfi is struggling, thus imo making Barkley's absence a much bigger deal than it actually is. Though don't get me wrong, as I wrote earlier at least he would offer something different to the tepid predictability of the current style of play.

Yes Del has gone back to Barcelona, which you have to think means they value him highly. So far he has not completed 90 minutes in a game for them, his contribution is 2 assists and I am willing to bet it will be a short romance.

Yes Klaassen is a more direct comparison to Cleverley I suppose, I am not going to dispute that.

Yes, pretty much everything we say on here is opinion, and as I said originally, mine is that we do not have a better squad now than we did 18 months ago. That is partly based on our current performances, and partly based on the levels I believe our current squad are capable of reaching at their very best. I used to think we had some outstanding players and just needed a little bit more quality to supplement them, now I think we have a squad full of pretty good players, but I don't see any of them as ripe pickings for bigger fish at the moment, which tells me we're lacking a bit of star quality.