Goals on Sunday

[Papa Shango]

I find 7th to 14th four, five even six additional wins per season. I don't know about you but when I leave the game and Everton have won it feels really good. Unlike those poor fans who witness 21 wins in Martinez' last 75 games dropping 134 points out of 225 available.

But that might just be me.

Although i doubt it.

Yeah of course the wins feel good at the time, at the end of the season though and you look back its still a load of nothingness. I want to win things! Or at least compete.

Nothing to do with Martinez by the way, just in general.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

In all seriousness @Kever10 Antolin Alcaraz is a peculiar hill to choose to die on, especially when there's far other more tangible areas that you could actually defend Martinez over, such as the ones others have already mentioned

Defending him over Alcaraz only serves to hurt the overall argument, because it's a highly dubious stance to take owing to Alcaraz being a thoroughly horrendous player who clearly did more harm than good during his arduous time on the books

You'd have more grounds to defend him over Niasse than you would Alcaraz, because at least you can pass off some of the blame for that on the scouting network and just chalk it up to a bad signing, which happens to all managers

But Alcaraz was a conscious decision to bring in one of his "boys", who he knew was already injured, only to then let him leech off the club while he recovered from said injury, only then to be turbo crap once he actually played

Martinez only comes out of the Alcaraz debacle looking bad. You could maybe stretch to say it showed he had loyalty to his mates, but when that loyalty hurts Everton then the loyalty no longer becomes admirable IMO

It's just strange to be honest

 

[Kever10]

In all seriousness @Kever10 Antolin Alcaraz is a peculiar hill to choose to die on, especially when there's far other more tangible areas that you could actually defend Martinez over, such as the ones others have already mentioned

Defending him over Alcaraz only serves to hurt the overall argument, because it's a highly dubious stance to take owing to Alcaraz being a thoroughly horrendous player who clearly did more harm than good during his arduous time on the books

You'd have more grounds to defend him over Niasse than you would Alcaraz, because at least you can pass off some of the blame for that on the scouting network and just chalk it up to a bad signing, which happens to all managers

But Alcaraz was a conscious decision to bring in one of his "boys", who he knew was already injured, only to then let him leech off the club while he recovered from said injury, only then to be turbo crap once he actually played

Martinez only comes out of the Alcaraz debacle looking bad. You could maybe stretch to say it showed he had loyalty to his mates, but when that loyalty hurts Everton then the loyalty no longer becomes admirable IMO

It's just strange to be honest

Regardless, I maintain that Alcaraz, Kone, Joel and McCarthy were exactly what they were intended to be. Players Martinez knew to help the transition with the dressing room. Alcaraz was a free transfer, and was signed as back up to help fill the squad where money could be better used elsewhere.

I would argue that Alcaraz was a much better player than any of the following... Anthony Gardner, Phillipe Senderos, Eddy Bosnar, Ibrahim Said, Li Wei Feng... All of whom were signed under similar circumstances under Moyes. The joys of a tight budget.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Regardless, I maintain that Alcaraz, Kone, Joel and McCarthy were exactly what they were intended to be. Players Martinez knew to help the transition with the dressing room. Alcaraz was a free transfer, and was signed as back up to help fill the squad where money could be better used elsewhere.

I would argue that Alcaraz was a much better player than any of the following... Anthony Gardner, Phillipe Senderos, Eddy Bosnar, Ibrahim Said, Li Wei Feng... All of whom were signed under similar circumstances under Moyes. The joys of a tight budget.

And I would argue that Kone, McCarthy and Joel are all signings you can defend due to what they brought, and in some cases, still bring to the table

I would argue that Alcaraz brought nothing to the team and that there were other players currently under contract at the club at the time who could have done what he was there to do, and indeed would have done what with Distin falling out of favour in the long run. He was surplus to requirements before even putting pen to paper. Three Wigan players were enough, there was no need for a crap, broken down, washed up, fourth one

I would go even farther and actually argue this, Alcaraz was the worst signing that Martinez ever made and the one signing of his that you cannot defend in any shape or form

Kone - Had a good season in 12/13 and the injury he suffered whilst playing for us essentially finished him. Despite that, he still slotted some goals for us. You can justify the signing

Robles - Still playing now. I'm not his biggest fan but he's on a run of good form. You can justify the signing

Jimmy Mac - Was great until his injury woes. You can justify the signing

Rom - Need I say more?

Barry - Ditto

Lennon - Good as cover on the wing. Probably not long for the club but has still put on some good displays whilst here. You can justify the signing

Cleverley - I've never hated him as much as everyone else. Middling player, but he came on a free and didn't have the injury woes of Alcaraz. You can justify the signing

McGeady - At the time we didn't have many options and it really was his last chance at a big club. Didn't work out but you could understand where Martinez was coming from. You can just about justify the signing

Galloway and Holgate - Lots of promise in both of them

Del - Massive shame it didn't work out. You can definitely justify taking a punt on him

Traore - Scored in his debut and promptly got injured. At least he contributed something

Niasse - A poor signing, but again that happens to all managers and you can also apportion blame to other places than just Martinez. You can justify that he was an unknown quantity who could have turned up trumps. It didn't work out, but again all managers will have one of these signings on their records

Alcaraz - Already injured once signed. Didn't need to be signed as we already had cover in that position. Held back better younger players. Stunk out the joint in all but the rarest occasion. Was there to be one of Martinez's "boys", when he already had three to begin with who could actually contribute something. Martinez allowed a player he knew was injured to leech money off the club, in a disgusting show of disrespect to both the club and the fan base. This is hands down his worst signing IMO and the one signing he made that you cannot justify in any manner whatsoever. An utterly crap player who was signed under questionable circumstances who actively hurt the club both in costing us a big match in Kiev and also hurting the development of younger players already on the books

Martinez gets a lot of unfair criticism on this place sometimes, but signing Alcaraz is one scenario where he thoroughly deserves any and all criticism. Quite simply one of the very worst Everton players of the Premier League era who was signed for darkly cynical reasons and provided literally nothing whilst here. We essentially paid for him to sit out an injury, and I don't see how anyone can justify that. If you get hurt whilst here, then fair enough, it happens. But he was already hurt and we still signed him, because Martinez wanted one of his mates to police the dressing room. Sickening

 

[ianefc]

Yeah of course the wins feel good at the time, at the end of the season though and you look back its still a load of nothingness. I want to win things! Or at least compete.

Nothing to do with Martinez by the way, just in general.

Well Martinez didn't. The two times we came up against a decent team in decent form we went out. And no Chelsea were not in decent form and were not a decent team last year.

 

[Kever10]

Martinez gets a lot of unfair criticism on this place sometimes, but signing Alcaraz is one scenario where he thoroughly deserves any and all criticism. Quite simply one of the very worst Everton players of the Premier League era who was signed for darkly cynical reasons and provided literally nothing whilst here. We essentially paid for him to sit out an injury, and I don't see how anyone can justify that. If you get hurt whilst here, then fair enough, it happens. But he was already hurt and we still signed him, because Martinez wanted one of his mates to police the dressing room. Sickening

He wasn't even as bad as any of the players I listed, and I think you are being overly harsh on him.

And better players than him have cost us big games in the past, and more obviously as well. How you can say that game was solely down to him, I do not know.

With regards holding people back, I disagree. We sold Duffy, and he certainly didn't take his place above Stones who was another youngster coming through.

He was signed as back up, and played OK in a few games, but was never a world beater. You make it out to be some dodgy underhanded dealing, and that my "Friend" (clique phrase) is Slander.

 

[Carl77]

I find this argument about Martinez's qualities as a manager a little difficult to understand.

As I see it, Moyes left a solid team that I felt achieved finishes that reflected the quality of the squad but over-achieved in terms of the budget he had at his disposal. We were hard to beat due to a solid back four well drilled in all aspects of defending. I always felt comfortable that we had a good chance of not being beaten unless we were playing one of the top 5. We finally started playing good football in his last 2 seasons mainly through Baines and Pienaar's telepathic understanding. Sadly this never really materialised against the bigger teams probably due to Moyes' mentality against those sides.

I was happy overall with where he left us and I think he was due the respect he received on his final game. He really did stabilise us as a club because we were going nowhere before he came onboard. Unfortunately his comments when pursuing both Baines and Fellaini soured that relationship and rightly so as it was disrespectful.

When Martinez was announced I confess to being underwhelmed and so too with the players he brought with him from Wigan. As the first season progressed I think it is fair to say that we all warmed to him. Initially we were all a little bit frustrated with his insistence on maintaining possession, particularly when he had us taking free kicks short when we could put it in the box. However, we started to see results and better still, we started to see wins that we were unaccustomed to, wins against Arsenal and Utd etc. His first season was an undoubted success. Only a fool could argue otherwise.

Unfortunately for Martinez, hindsight can be a cruel mistress but it does allow one to revisit his achievements with a clearer perspective. 72 points is not to be sniffed at, in fact it was a magnificent achievement that would have normally secured a 4th place finish. I guess it's just our luck that it didn't.

At the time I put all that success down to Martinez's impact and the removal of the negative tactics against the bigger boys. Now I'm not so sure. Moyes left a team that had been steadily improving, was tight knit and had been together for several years. It also had a shelf life of another 2 years before an overhaul was needed. What Martinez did was to swap Fellaini for McCarthy which gave us some much needed energy in the middle of the park, and added a goalscorer in the form of Lukaku. It is the added goals from Lukaku that in my opinion helped us move on that year. Had Moyes had that goal scoring threat at his disposal, I think he could have achieved the same points.

That said, this is by no means a given. I always thought that Moyes had the defensive side of the game down to a tee, he also showed that he could get the team playing nice stuff, but I always thought that he had an uncanny ability to destroy a striker. I base this on the change in effectiveness of both Yakubu and Jelavic. Both were productive when they first arrived and had been at their previous clubs. However, once Moyes had his hands on them for a while that all changed. They became an outlet spending most of their time running the channels rather than getting in the box where they could hurt the opposition. There is nothing to suggest that this would have been the case with Lukaku but there is also nothing to say that he would have got as much out of him as Martinez did.

I certainly appreciate having a high scoring striker in our team and I think that this is Martinez's main achievement at the club, as I would question whether Moyes would have gone for him or have been able to a) convince him to sign for us permanently or b) justify the price tag to himself.

Unfortunately for Martinez his next 2 seasons were dismal. He had spoken openly that he believed practicing defending set pieces was a waste of time. The evidence on the pitch suggested otherwise. His results in his first season had convinced the players to buy into his methods fully and as a result, all they had learned from Moyes was forgotten.

Results started to go against him, usually due to the new found ability to defend badly. As the frequency of these results increased, so did the fans impatience and lack of confidence in the team. Goodison always responds to what is shown on the pitch. If we're putting in a shift the crowd do the same, if we look nervous you can hear and feel it in the stands (see last Saturday's game against Bournemouth). Eventually the pendulum swung so much that you could see that the players feared playing at home.

Martinez refusal to change only compounded this. For 18 months the team played with fear. Players were boo'd for passing backwards in order to fulfill Martinez's insistence on possession football, the crowd moaned when players stood off the opposition when it was obvious that Martinez wanted the team to cut out the oppositions options rather than press. Fortunately teams in Europe gave us the space to use his tactics effectively enough to have a decent European adventure. This I believe bought him more time and until that dreadful performance that saw us knocked out I fully enjoyed those nights.

For his sake he should have been relieved of control sooner. He was a nice guy and for a while his positivity was a breath of fresh air. He lost the crowd though and there was a long period where it was obvious that the honeymoon was well and truly over. His refusal to provide post match analysis that reflected what the fans had witnessed only served to add fuel to the fire because it painted the picture that nothing was being done to address the decline in performances.

At the end of the day though the decision to let him go was correct and probably worth the money. He did a job when it could be argued that there weren't too many options around at that time. It could also be argued that despite us finishing 15 2 seasons in a row he left us as a more attractive proposition to potential managers. We had transitioned from a team seen as over performing with no real star players to a team clearly under performing with some extremely talented youngsters in Stones, Barkley and Lukaku. Admittedly the latter 2 were here with Moyes but it was Martinez that established them. What half decent manager wouldn't fancy their chances of being able to improve on 15th as opposed to replacing Moyes with what he left.

For me, in hindsight I will remember Martinez for allowing Barkley and Stones to at the very least become established first team era as I'm not confident that Moyes would have risked that. But most of all I will remember him for being vital in the acquisition of Lukaku. He put all his eggs in one basket and it may have provided the basis for us breaking into the top 4. In hindsight of my hindsight that could all change if we lose Lukaku in the summer as I would put the loss of him down to the team progressing too slowly due to those two poor seasons.

 

[MikeH72]

I find this argument about Martinez's qualities as a manager a little difficult to understand.

As I see it, Moyes left a solid team that I felt achieved finishes that reflected the quality of the squad but over-achieved in terms of the budget he had at his disposal. We were hard to beat due to a solid back four well drilled in all aspects of defending. I always felt comfortable that we had a good chance of not being beaten unless we were playing one of the top 5. We finally started playing good football in his last 2 seasons mainly through Baines and Pienaar's telepathic understanding. Sadly this never really materialised against the bigger teams probably due to Moyes' mentality against those sides.

I was happy overall with where he left us and I think he was due the respect he received on his final game. He really did stabilise us as a club because we were going nowhere before he came onboard. Unfortunately his comments when pursuing both Baines and Fellaini soured that relationship and rightly so as it was disrespectful.

When Martinez was announced I confess to being underwhelmed and so too with the players he brought with him from Wigan. As the first season progressed I think it is fair to say that we all warmed to him. Initially we were all a little bit frustrated with his insistence on maintaining possession, particularly when he had us taking free kicks short when we could put it in the box. However, we started to see results and better still, we started to see wins that we were unaccustomed to, wins against Arsenal and Utd etc. His first season was an undoubted success. Only a fool could argue otherwise.

Unfortunately for Martinez, hindsight can be a cruel mistress but it does allow one to revisit his achievements with a clearer perspective. 72 points is not to be sniffed at, in fact it was a magnificent achievement that would have normally secured a 4th place finish. I guess it's just our luck that it didn't.

At the time I put all that success down to Martinez's impact and the removal of the negative tactics against the bigger boys. Now I'm not so sure. Moyes left a team that had been steadily improving, was tight knit and had been together for several years. It also had a shelf life of another 2 years before an overhaul was needed. What Martinez did was to swap Fellaini for McCarthy which gave us some much needed energy in the middle of the park, and added a goalscorer in the form of Lukaku. It is the added goals from Lukaku that in my opinion helped us move on that year. Had Moyes had that goal scoring threat at his disposal, I think he could have achieved the same points.

That said, this is by no means a given. I always thought that Moyes had the defensive side of the game down to a tee, he also showed that he could get the team playing nice stuff, but I always thought that he had an uncanny ability to destroy a striker. I base this on the change in effectiveness of both Yakubu and Jelavic. Both were productive when they first arrived and had been at their previous clubs. However, once Moyes had his hands on them for a while that all changed. They became an outlet spending most of their time running the channels rather than getting in the box where they could hurt the opposition. There is nothing to suggest that this would have been the case with Lukaku but there is also nothing to say that he would have got as much out of him as Martinez did.

I certainly appreciate having a high scoring striker in our team and I think that this is Martinez's main achievement at the club, as I would question whether Moyes would have gone for him or have been able to a) convince him to sign for us permanently or b) justify the price tag to himself.

Unfortunately for Martinez his next 2 seasons were dismal. He had spoken openly that he believed practicing defending set pieces was a waste of time. The evidence on the pitch suggested otherwise. His results in his first season had convinced the players to buy into his methods fully and as a result, all they had learned from Moyes was forgotten.

Results started to go against him, usually due to the new found ability to defend badly. As the frequency of these results increased, so did the fans impatience and lack of confidence in the team. Goodison always responds to what is shown on the pitch. If we're putting in a shift the crowd do the same, if we look nervous you can hear and feel it in the stands (see last Saturday's game against Bournemouth). Eventually the pendulum swung so much that you could see that the players feared playing at home.

Martinez refusal to change only compounded this. For 18 months the team played with fear. Players were boo'd for passing backwards in order to fulfill Martinez's insistence on possession football, the crowd moaned when players stood off the opposition when it was obvious that Martinez wanted the team to cut out the oppositions options rather than press. Fortunately teams in Europe gave us the space to use his tactics effectively enough to have a decent European adventure. This I believe bought him more time and until that dreadful performance that saw us knocked out I fully enjoyed those nights.

For his sake he should have been relieved of control sooner. He was a nice guy and for a while his positivity was a breath of fresh air. He lost the crowd though and there was a long period where it was obvious that the honeymoon was well and truly over. His refusal to provide post match analysis that reflected what the fans had witnessed only served to add fuel to the fire because it painted the picture that nothing was being done to address the decline in performances.

At the end of the day though the decision to let him go was correct and probably worth the money. He did a job when it could be argued that there weren't too many options around at that time. It could also be argued that despite us finishing 15 2 seasons in a row he left us as a more attractive proposition to potential managers. We had transitioned from a team seen as over performing with no real star players to a team clearly under performing with some extremely talented youngsters in Stones, Barkley and Lukaku. Admittedly the latter 2 were here with Moyes but it was Martinez that established them. What half decent manager wouldn't fancy their chances of being able to improve on 15th as opposed to replacing Moyes with what he left.

For me, in hindsight I will remember Martinez for allowing Barkley and Stones to at the very least become established first team era as I'm not confident that Moyes would have risked that. But most of all I will remember him for being vital in the acquisition of Lukaku. He put all his eggs in one basket and it may have provided the basis for us breaking into the top 4. In hindsight of my hindsight that could all change if we lose Lukaku in the summer as I would put the loss of him down to the team progressing too slowly due to those two poor seasons.

That's a lot of text to say Martinez is crap mate.

 

[Papa Shango]

Well Martinez didn't. The two times we came up against a decent team in decent form we went out. And no Chelsea were not in decent form and were not a decent team last year.

Yeah I get it, you dont like Martinez. What I am saying has got nothing to do with him. I didnt mention him. Just a general observation that anything between 7th and 14th is pretty meh for me.

 

[Carl77]

That's a lot of text to say Martinez is crap mate.

Actually I think you'll find it's a lot of text to find a positive

 

[Papa Shango]

Regardless, I maintain that Alcaraz, Kone, Joel and McCarthy were exactly what they were intended to be. Players Martinez knew to help the transition with the dressing room. Alcaraz was a free transfer, and was signed as back up to help fill the squad where money could be better used elsewhere.

I would argue that Alcaraz was a much better player than any of the following... Anthony Gardner, Phillipe Senderos, Eddy Bosnar, Ibrahim Said, Li Wei Feng... All of whom were signed under similar circumstances under Moyes. The joys of a tight budget.

Gardner never played a minute to be fair on the bloke! Neither did Said or Bosnar actually! Allegedly Said was half decent actually.

 

[ianefc]

Yeah I get it, you dont like Martinez. What I am saying has got nothing to do with him. I didnt mention him. Just a general observation that anything between 7th and 14th is pretty meh for me.

I see what you're saying mate, but when I see that sentence I automatically see it as though you're or anyone who says it is trying to give a free pass to managers who 'achieve' those lowly positions.

 

[MikeH72]

And I would argue that Kone, McCarthy and Joel are all signings you can defend due to what they brought, and in some cases, still bring to the table

I would argue that Alcaraz brought nothing to the team and that there were other players currently under contract at the club at the time who could have done what he was there to do, and indeed would have done what with Distin falling out of favour in the long run. He was surplus to requirements before even putting pen to paper. Three Wigan players were enough, there was no need for a crap, broken down, washed up, fourth one

I would go even farther and actually argue this, Alcaraz was the worst signing that Martinez ever made and the one signing of his that you cannot defend in any shape or form

Kone - Had a good season in 12/13 and the injury he suffered whilst playing for us essentially finished him. Despite that, he still slotted some goals for us. You can justify the signing

Robles - Still playing now. I'm not his biggest fan but he's on a run of good form. You can justify the signing

Jimmy Mac - Was great until his injury woes. You can justify the signing

Rom - Need I say more?

Barry - Ditto

Lennon - Good as cover on the wing. Probably not long for the club but has still put on some good displays whilst here. You can justify the signing

Cleverley - I've never hated him as much as everyone else. Middling player, but he came on a free and didn't have the injury woes of Alcaraz. You can justify the signing

McGeady - At the time we didn't have many options and it really was his last chance at a big club. Didn't work out but you could understand where Martinez was coming from. You can just about justify the signing

Galloway and Holgate - Lots of promise in both of them

Del - Massive shame it didn't work out. You can definitely justify taking a punt on him

Traore - Scored in his debut and promptly got injured. At least he contributed something

Niasse - A poor signing, but again that happens to all managers and you can also apportion blame to other places than just Martinez. You can justify that he was an unknown quantity who could have turned up trumps. It didn't work out, but again all managers will have one of these signings on their records

Alcaraz - Already injured once signed. Didn't need to be signed as we already had cover in that position. Held back better younger players. Stunk out the joint in all but the rarest occasion. Was there to be one of Martinez's "boys", when he already had three to begin with who could actually contribute something. Martinez allowed a player he knew was injured to leech money off the club, in a disgusting show of disrespect to both the club and the fan base. This is hands down his worst signing IMO and the one signing he made that you cannot justify in any manner whatsoever. An utterly crap player who was signed under questionable circumstances who actively hurt the club both in costing us a big match in Kiev and also hurting the development of younger players already on the books

Martinez gets a lot of unfair criticism on this place sometimes, but signing Alcaraz is one scenario where he thoroughly deserves any and all criticism. Quite simply one of the very worst Everton players of the Premier League era who was signed for darkly cynical reasons and provided literally nothing whilst here. We essentially paid for him to sit out an injury, and I don't see how anyone can justify that. If you get hurt whilst here, then fair enough, it happens. But he was already hurt and we still signed him, because Martinez wanted one of his mates to police the dressing room. Sickening

I think you've been very, very, extremely kind to some of those signings there mate.

 

[Amw79]

One year ago today. Darkness my old friend...

How embarrassing.

 

[Kever10]

Gardner never played a minute to be fair on the bloke! Neither did Said or Bosnar actually! Allegedly Said was half decent actually.

Yeah, that was my point really. They were all brought in as senior back up, when youngsters could in theory have been used, but it's a tough position to trust young players in. I don't see any of them taking the place of a youngster who could have played, and if the youngster was good enough (Stones) they would/should play anyway.

In fairness to @Mikey_Fitzgerald, I had wanted Duffy to keep his place years earlier when Moyes dropped him to play Hibbert at CB. But for whatever reason, Moyes and Martinez never fancied/trusted him.