Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Ashtonian]

Oh right, so what you're saying is..... He valued Stones highly enough to try and break Chelsea's transfer record for him, but if he comes to Everton, he won't be arsed trying to develop him?

Actually, neither of us knows mate. You're basically talking out of your backside, but feel free to carry on.

course i am, not like i am basing that on his previous job or anything.

So on that basis Rooney will be our first summer signing then, because he really wanted him. Or , you know, things don't always work like that.

 

[mythbuster]

course i am, not like i am basing that on his previous job or anything.

So on that basis Rooney will be our first summer signing then, because he really wanted him. Or , you know, things don't always work like that.

LOL. What a load of guff.

 

[bluestevon]

never said he is definitely selling stones, saying it is an option to him to sign ready made players which in the short term would bring bigger success compared to coaching a 21 year old there instead.



but he also planned to be at chelsea for a long time the second time around and to be fair if the team hadn't stopped playing for him, he would still be there. So selling his best young talents off was never a 'because i had this player' move, it was just to move money elsewhere to sign other players, as you say for FFP. The players in question were the best of a mixed bunch of youngsters, but if you sign enough young players then one or two will be better than others. I mean luakaku alone cost the club double figures when he arrived, so there was definitely a plan to actually use him before Jose came along. The reason why he sold him, i believe was to raise money to sign other players he wanted, and with costa there, he could sell him on, with the FFP rules resetting allowing him to buy him back when he became the finished article. Probably the same with Wolfsburg, sell him on for a modest fee, sign him again when he is ready to slip straight into the team, ergo, continue success in the short term. It is like looking at our team now, sell stones for example and sign willian and matic. Would our team improve? Yes it would, quite a bit to be honest, but over the long term we lose a player that would be worth more than we sold them for meaning that quality would be what we are chasing then.

I would personally take him because he is a massive step up from previous managers so i'm not going to be anti roberto and then turn my nose up at a winner, course i'd be happy seeing him manage us, and the impact on some of our players would be massive tbh, playing for a manager who has done it all rather than relegated teams.



Chelsea is an enigma though, they can manage themselves when they need to, or at least could before the phasing of the guard. the same players who managed themselves under grant, under Di matteo, both after stopping playing for their then managers. the players can afford to do it because after him they got hiddink, they are getting conte, that woudn't work with us as we don't have a queue of top managers waiting to take over.

A lot of perspective is on mourhinio at top clubs where the players expect to be winning everything, a positive is that put him at a club where the team are not at that same mentality and you get hopefully a team who can run through brick walls because the man telling them to has done it already several times over.

Good points, will adress a couple of those as well, at every club he has managed recently they have had some massive egos as well, madrid and chelsea most certainly, and some very influential figures that IF and when it comes time they need replacing can cause havoc in the dressing room, certainly was the case in madrid with cassilas which caused a huge fracture in the squad and at Chelsea he lost Lampard and then Terry as always was a problem when he tried to phase him out the team. Maybe a problem you could say he had is he wasn't surgical or clinical enough, Ferguson had that in spades - shown by getting shut of Keane for one example or Staam/RVD and Beckham as another few examples - all players if he kept around could have ended up causing a huge fracturing of the squad, he just shipped the guy off the moment he thought he needed to - situation averted, Mourinho seemed to let the situation fester and kept the player in the sqaud still

Thing is though mate about younger players etc, IF as was the case with De Bruyne and Lukaku you have a young player who is by no means the finished article and clearly inferior to a player you currently have - Costa and Hazard for example - and the pressure is on you every season to deliver a title or CL, then what amnagher on earth is going to give assurances on playing time to the younger player - Lukaku for example has often stated he has never seen himself as being anything less than a starter - and its the reason he isnt still at Chelsea now - that mvoe was mad ebecause Lukaku wanted to go - not the other wy around, same with De Bruyne - he wanted to be playing week in week out.

Don't think i have ever seen a amanger who would have given them starting roles in that Chelsea team with the other players they had, both of their and to a lesser extent chesleas problem was that they bought the players 2-3 years too early as they as a team just haven't got the ability or patience as a club (from the owner down) to stick with developing a player through at the cost of a lesser set of results on the pitch short term

Only exceptions are in that rare case a young player does get a couple of games - at a club like Chelsea they have to really grab that opportunity whenever it occurs, Lukaku and De Bruyne had a few games and they actually played poorly when given that chance, Rashford and the Arsenal striker for example have done the exact opposite. At Everton and even with the new owenr the pressure on having to prduce isntantly if given a chance is no where near as high obviously, but can tell you now that if the young lads the other day would have had really poor games then the chances our we wouldn't have seent ehm again for a year or so and they would be on the conveyor belt of younger players we would look to ship off on loan to get more experience

 

[Jxg]

If Arsenal fans get their way then Wenger will be looking for a club in the summer.
I'd snap him up.

If he leaves Arsenal he will return to France to manage a team there, or he will retire.

 

[R.Reddington]

If Arsenal fans get their way then Wenger will be looking for a club in the summer.
I'd snap him up.

No thanks.

 

[bluestevon]

I personally think Mourinhio goes for instant success over developing a team. The age old question, how many young players did he actually put into his team and how many did he just buy? considering he has what, 5-6 years at chelsea, the closest he got was re signing his old players (matic) rather than developing them. Mikel perhaps? think he had no choice with him, considering the mess they went through to get him at the club..

I think the discussion is steering way off topic into an anti mourhinio tone form me and i really don't mean anything i say in that regard. He is a top manager and would still be happy with him here, even if he bought that success to us

In 3 years though mate, the only young player martinez has put into the team he didn't buy is Browning (maybe can include Stones although he had tried to buy him 6 months earlier) given the size and quality of our squad compared to a Chelsea or Madrid that is something that gets overlooked, also lok at when the presusre is on him in a game and he will tend to go for experience over taking a chance with a yonger player, imagine that pressure was like it is at Cheslea and i honestly think you would see nothing different int erms of how younger players are handled

Look through Mourinho's record since Porto though, at every club he has been at - it doesn't matter if you are young or old it is if you are currently good enough to produce what he expects, it's why players like Robben and Varane flourished under him, and also why he wanted Stones so badly - he relaised he was good enough to play right then

 

[Ashtonian]

Good points, will adress a couple of those as well, at every club he has managed recently they have had some massive egos as well, madrid and chelsea most certainly, and some very influential figures that IF and when it comes time they need replacing can cause havoc in the dressing room, certainly was the case in madrid with cassilas which caused a huge fracture in the squad and at Chelsea he lost Lampard and then Terry as always was a problem when he tried to phase him out the team. Maybe a problem you could say he had is he wasn't surgical or clinical enough, Ferguson had that in spades - shown by getting shut of Keane for one example or Staam/RVD and Beckham as another few examples - all players if he kept around could have ended up causing a huge fracturing of the squad, he just shipped the guy off the moment he thought he needed to - situation averted, Mourinho seemed to let the situation fester and kept the player in the sqaud still

Thing is though mate about younger players etc, IF as was the case with De Bruyne and Lukaku you have a young player who is by no means the finished article and clearly inferior to a player you currently have - Costa and Hazard for example - and the pressure is on you every season to deliver a title or CL, then what amnagher on earth is going to give assurances on playing time to the younger player - Lukaku for example has often stated he has never seen himself as being anything less than a starter - and its the reason he isnt still at Chelsea now - that mvoe was mad ebecause Lukaku wanted to go - not the other wy around, same with De Bruyne - he wanted to be playing week in week out.

Don't think i have ever seen a amanger who would have given them starting roles in that Chelsea team with the other players they had, both of their and to a lesser extent chesleas problem was that they bought the players 2-3 years too early as they as a team just haven't got the ability or patience as a club (from the owner down) to stick with developing a player through at the cost of a lesser set of results on the pitch short term

Only exceptions are in that rare case a young player does get a couple of games - at a club like Chelsea they have to really grab that opportunity whenever it occurs, Lukaku and De Bruyne had a few games and they actually played poorly when given that chance, Rashford and the Arsenal striker for example have done the exact opposite. At Everton and even with the new owenr the pressure on having to prduce isntantly if given a chance is no where near as high obviously, but can tell you now that if the young lads the other day would have had really poor games then the chances our we wouldn't have seent ehm again for a year or so and they would be on the conveyor belt of younger players we would look to ship off on loan to get more experience

Well i can't argue with that perspective mate if i'm honest.

I guess it shows the different culture of football, from a club affording to sell them to clubs who deem keeping a young player away from them a successful transfer window lol

Said it on another reply before that the attitudes here compared to chelsea would be massively different with jose here. Chelsea can afford to down tools because they can get a new man in to carry on, whereas any other year and us not showing any fight would end up with eddie howe at best. But you give these players a proven winner in charge and i think it would have such a good effect on the side, as well as the better quality players signed than we are used to, that it could be a huge catalyst. Even if Jose was poached after 12 months, the atittudes could be changed from a plucky one to a potentially winning one ala, sadly, the liverpool view on things.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

In his rush to knock down the idea that Jose would ever consider Everton, he failed to allow me to explain Jose approached Everton not the other way round. The point was not worth continuing.

Anyway that call from my perspective was more about making sure more people in the footballing world understood why Martinez has to go than who was coming in next.

...and continues to 'flash his knickers'.

 

[ijjysmith]

I don't get the whole Mourinho doesn't develop youth. Well not in th case of De Bruyne and Lukaku anyway.

They were sold/loaned to clubs not as good as Chelsea were at the time, they were not ready to play for Chelsea and more importantly wanted the move themselves.

They simply weren't good enough at that time. Different story now of course. They'd both walk into the Chelsea team.

 

[bluestevon]

Well i can't argue with that perspective mate if i'm honest.

I guess it shows the different culture of football, from a club affording to sell them to clubs who deem keeping a young player away from them a successful transfer window lol

Said it on another reply before that the attitudes here compared to chelsea would be massively different with jose here. Chelsea can afford to down tools because they can get a new man in to carry on, whereas any other year and us not showing any fight would end up with eddie howe at best. But you give these players a proven winner in charge and i think it would have such a good effect on the side, as well as the better quality players signed than we are used to, that it could be a huge catalyst. Even if Jose was poached after 12 months, the atittudes could be changed from a plucky one to a potentially winning one ala, sadly, the liverpool view on things.

Look at what he managed to do in Europe with Inter mate, arguably his gretaest feat that was, got the absolute best out of every single player that season.

Generally the best view to take on judging a manger or player is how you'd feel about a rival - say liverpool/united if they signed them/appointed them, i know if they'd have got Mourinho in after Rodgers/Moyes i would have been absolutely bricking it and knowing for certain they would be winning things over the next few seasons.

Within one day of us appointing Mourinho you would see a complete U-Turn by the press in their attitudes towards us as a club they link with dross whilst linking all out talent with everyone on a daily basis, no other available manager would bring that, plus from a financial POV we'd have to pay him massively ofc, but with Moshiri trying to redo the clubs commercial arm over, it would pay for itself as sponsors etc would flock to be associated, guarantee 1 thing as well, we would have the most televised games in the hostory of the club the following season

In every signle way for us it makes sense

 

[bluestevon]

I don't get the whole Mourinho doesn't develop youth. Well not in th case of De Bruyne and Lukaku anyway.

They were sold/loaned to clubs not as good as Chelsea were at the time, they were not ready to play for Chelsea and more importantly wanted the move themselves.

They simply weren't good enough at that time. Different story now of course. They'd both walk into the Chelsea team.

Both players thought they were ready and good enough a year or two before they actually where to be integral parts of the team mate, both when given a small chance failed badly to show anything and both ultimately forced Chelsea to sell them by making it clear they wanted to move for first team football

 

[mythbuster]

I don't get the whole Mourinho doesn't develop youth. Well not in th case of De Bruyne and Lukaku anyway.

They were sold/loaned to clubs not as good as Chelsea were at the time, they were not ready to play for Chelsea and more importantly wanted the move themselves.

They simply weren't good enough at that time. Different story now of course. They'd both walk into the Chelsea team.

Shocking that he overlooked them in favour of players who waltzed to a league title. Absolutely shocking.

Anyway, what's going on? Jose is our new gaffer and we're selling John Stones, and buying Wayne Rooney. I'm really confused. #Joseout

 

[maccavennie]

Look at what he managed to do in Europe with Inter mate, arguably his gretaest feat that was, got the absolute best out of every single player that season.

Generally the best view to take on judging a manger or player is how you'd feel about a rival - say liverpool/united if they signed them/appointed them, i know if they'd have got Mourinho in after Rodgers/Moyes i would have been absolutely bricking it and knowing for certain they would be winning things over the next few seasons.

Within one day of us appointing Mourinho you would see a complete U-Turn by the press in their attitudes towards us as a club they link with dross whilst linking all out talent with everyone on a daily basis, no other available manager would bring that, plus from a financial POV we'd have to pay him massively ofc, but with Moshiri trying to redo the clubs commercial arm over, it would pay for itself as sponsors etc would flock to be associated, guarantee 1 thing as well, we would have the most televised games in the hostory of the club the following season

In every signle way for us it makes sense

Can't really argue with any of that.

I know this sounds strange as well but I actually think Everton would be a good fit for him. I think he will be still stung and hurting by the way it all unravelled so quickly at Chelsea.

 

[Ashtonian]

Look at what he managed to do in Europe with Inter mate, arguably his gretaest feat that was, got the absolute best out of every single player that season.

Generally the best view to take on judging a manger or player is how you'd feel about a rival - say liverpool/united if they signed them/appointed them, i know if they'd have got Mourinho in after Rodgers/Moyes i would have been absolutely bricking it and knowing for certain they would be winning things over the next few seasons.

Within one day of us appointing Mourinho you would see a complete U-Turn by the press in their attitudes towards us as a club they link with dross whilst linking all out talent with everyone on a daily basis, no other available manager would bring that, plus from a financial POV we'd have to pay him massively ofc, but with Moshiri trying to redo the clubs commercial arm over, it would pay for itself as sponsors etc would flock to be associated, guarantee 1 thing as well, we would have the most televised games in the hostory of the club the following season

In every single way for us it makes sense

aye that would be right. Especially from the have moyes back atittude to a suddenly 'woah' whats happening here response.

you are almost making me want Jose as first choice here mate haha I can accept a convincing argument.

I think that is something i would look forward to in the future, mourinhio does seem to have an eye for talent when signing players, and it would only take one to turn the side so to speak. Like kante at the leaders now, already being sold to x amount of clubs, i would imagine with a jose here, he wouldn't experience that .

 

[ijjysmith]

Before anyone gets to excited, it doesn't mean he's coming here but he's desperate to stay in the PL and us and United are the only realistic openings. United was , and possibly still is, not a done deal, so he expressed a lot of interest in Everton and that has continued.

I stress I do not know the outcome.

*keels over