Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[MACCA75]

We dont know if he wants to play 2 DMs....we dont know what players fit his strategy....and we dont know if it will work.

Maybe and might work,yes...so id like to see him have the opportunity.

You can't honestly be serious? You'll be telling us he might really want to play two wingers next.

 

[MACCA75]

So let's be clear you think that for three seasons he's been playing a system that he doesn't want to play? Not sure that's exactly a point in his favour! However it is interesting to make the comparison with Spurs for example who while they may not be comparable in every way they do play a similar system to ours with two defensive midfielders. Now as Bobby has explained it takes 50 years of experience and a zimmerframe to be able to play in that position. Nonetheless Pochettino has taken a 21 year old centre back and turned him into one of the best in that position in the space of a year. I'm not criticising Barry by the way because I think hes one of our best players and to be honest I think McCarthy works his socks off too. But this just highlights the difference between the two teams. When Spurs defend they defend with eleven players they work hard for each other. We have two midfielders working hard and the rest of the team throwing shapes and letting players drift past them. That's not good enough at the top level. Bobby is great at giving out pats on the back but not so good at enforcing discipline and hard work. Pochettino wouldn't stand for the lack of workrate and indiscipline that we see week in week out and that's what separates us from them not the system we play.

Absolutely on the money. Irritates me when people talk about Barkley or Del and say 'it's not their job' to put tackles in. Take a look at Lamela this season. The lad has gone from a luxury player to one that puts a shift in from the first minute to the last. How many of our players do that?

 

[hktoffee]

I said 8th or 9th for this season. I thought that was a reasonable estimate based upon:

Tim Howard in goal
One striker of note
2 out of 3 CBs developing/adapting
No left midfield
Central midfield being weak

Additonally just looking at the wage bills of other clubs as a barometer.

Then also looking at:
Chelsea
Man Utd
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Man City

So i expected us to finish behind them and possibly others while rebuilding.

On the Moyes topic he was successful at finishing above expectations through his % winning football as he called it. Fair play to him.

We went for martinez to rebuild the club to play a different type of attacking football over a number of years from the ground up.

Youre saying he has spent £15mil a year...so effectively we can look at this in a few ways:

1-- £28mil on Lukaku which alone wipes the spend
2 -- Hes bought young players+short term fixes
3-- Other teams have spent far more
4--£15mil is like 1 decent player a season now

I dont think his transfer record can be argued with.


To be honest anything above 8th or 9th would be overachieving....are we underachieving in 12th? Well yes we are but the season isnt over yet.

I don't agree with this. Aiming 6th with this squad is a fair shout. I can't endure the 30% winning rate in the league let alone the continuity of Martinez's regime. Ok I know he will not get the sack if he wins the cup but for me he is not the answer.

 

[mythbuster]

Absolutely on the money. Irritates me when people talk about Barkley or Del and say 'it's not their job' to put tackles in. Take a look at Lamela this season. The lad has gone from a luxury player to one that puts a shift in from the first minute to the last. How many of our players do that?

If you play in midfield, and can't tackle, then you should really be taking a long hard look at yourself. There's no room in the modern game for a midfielder who can't tackle. Sure, Paul Scholes was terrible at it, but at least he tried....

It's the one problem I have with Barkley.....

 

[bluewally]

So let's be clear you think that for three seasons he's been playing a system that he doesn't want to play? Not sure that's exactly a point in his favour! However it is interesting to make the comparison with Spurs for example who while they may not be comparable in every way they do play a similar system to ours with two defensive midfielders. Now as Bobby has explained it takes 50 years of experience and a zimmerframe to be able to play in that position. Nonetheless Pochettino has taken a 21 year old centre back and turned him into one of the best in that position in the space of a year. I'm not criticising Barry by the way because I think hes one of our best players and to be honest I think McCarthy works his socks off too. But this just highlights the difference between the two teams. When Spurs defend they defend with eleven players they work hard for each other. We have two midfielders working hard and the rest of the team throwing shapes and letting players drift past them. That's not good enough at the top level. Bobby is great at giving out pats on the back but not so good at enforcing discipline and hard work. Pochettino wouldn't stand for the lack of workrate and indiscipline that we see week in week out and that's what separates us from them not the system we play.

Also, he apparently doesn't want his full backs pushing on and would prefer they sit in defence but Coleman and Baines ignore him and attack anyway without reproach

 

[markmarkmark]

If you play in midfield, and can't tackle, then you should really be taking a long hard look at yourself. There's no room in the modern game for a midfielder who can't tackle. Sure, Paul Scholes was terrible at it, but at least he tried....

It's the one problem I have with Barkley.....

Maybe Barkley shy's from tackles because his double break is still in his mind.

 

[Zatara]

So let's be clear you think that for three seasons he's been playing a system that he doesn't want to play? Not sure that's exactly a point in his favour! However it is interesting to make the comparison with Spurs for example who while they may not be comparable in every way they do play a similar system to ours with two defensive midfielders. Now as Bobby has explained it takes 50 years of experience and a zimmerframe to be able to play in that position. Nonetheless Pochettino has taken a 21 year old centre back and turned him into one of the best in that position in the space of a year. I'm not criticising Barry by the way because I think hes one of our best players and to be honest I think McCarthy works his socks off too. But this just highlights the difference between the two teams. When Spurs defend they defend with eleven players they work hard for each other. We have two midfielders working hard and the rest of the team throwing shapes and letting players drift past them. That's not good enough at the top level. Bobby is great at giving out pats on the back but not so good at enforcing discipline and hard work. Pochettino wouldn't stand for the lack of workrate and indiscipline that we see week in week out and that's what separates us from them not the system we play.

I have no idea if Barry/McCarthy are his ideal pairing in DM. Its not even so much about having two DMs more about that to get a Barry we need to spend a fortune if we want a younger player....then would we need McCarthy next to this new signing? Or would he go for a different type of player there if he had the money.

Its all hypothetical.

We dont know and wont know.

 

[D410]

Should he be sacked before the summer?
I think there is a relevant debate to be had now on that topic given the unravelling of the situation both at the club and within the fan-base.
Is he game to game now? If we get done by Watford should he go after the match.
Personally, I don,t see how much good can come from keeping on a manager till the summer (to be sacked) if it,s going to make matters worse from now till the end of the season.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Goalposts have shifted and the club will now want success just as much as the fans do.

Might have been a different story ten years ago.

We hope. Though tbf the only club Moshiri has experience of is Arsenal (and yes I know he wasn't a decision maker) who, it could be argued, have kept hold of their manager for far too long.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

I have no idea if Barry/McCarthy are his ideal pairing in DM. Its not even so much about having two DMs more about that to get a Barry we need to spend a fortune if we want a younger player....then would we need McCarthy next to this new signing? Or would he go for a different type of player there if he had the money.

Its all hypothetical.

We dont know and wont know.

He brought both of them in... when both of them are fit they both play.

His ideal pairing might be Zidane and pirlo - but the fact of the matter is, his pairing at the heart is McCarthey and Barry.

 

[Zatara]

I don't agree with this. Aiming 6th with this squad is a fair shout. I can't endure the 30% winning rate in the league let alone the continuity of Martinez's regime. Ok I know he will not get the sack if he wins the cup but for me he is not the answer.

You thought 6th at the start of the season?

How did you see the league table looking?

 

[Ihaters]

I said 8th or 9th for this season. I thought that was a reasonable estimate based upon:

Tim Howard in goal
One striker of note
2 out of 3 CBs developing/adapting
No left midfield
Central midfield being weak

Additonally just looking at the wage bills of other clubs as a barometer.

Then also looking at:
Chelsea
Man Utd
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Man City

So i expected us to finish behind them and possibly others while rebuilding.

On the Moyes topic he was successful at finishing above expectations through his % winning football as he called it. Fair play to him.

We went for martinez to rebuild the club to play a different type of attacking football over a number of years from the ground up.

Youre saying he has spent £15mil a year...so effectively we can look at this in a few ways:

1-- £28mil on Lukaku which alone wipes the spend
2 -- Hes bought young players+short term fixes
3-- Other teams have spent far more
4--£15mil is like 1 decent player a season now

I dont think his transfer record can be argued with.


To be honest anything above 8th or 9th would be overachieving....are we underachieving in 12th? Well yes we are but the season isnt over yet.

Took a team that finished 6th, spent 3 seasons and a shed load of money of it, added a 20 gaol striker for the first time in decades and only going back 3 places to 9th would be over achieving?

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Should he be sacked before the summer?
I think there is a relevant debate to be had now on that topic given the unravelling of the situation both at the club and within the fan-base.
Is he game to game now? If we get done by Watford should he go after the match.
Personally, I don,t see how much good can come from keeping on a manager till the summer (to be sacked) if it,s going to make matters worse from now till the end of the season.

You know what mate, i have been thinking about this the last few days trying to get my head around when would be the best time for this, should it happen.

Personally, right now it feels like we a flogging a dead horse. The club is flat, the players sound like they are unhappy and everything is going wrong. I am half on the fence thinking if we get rid now and have a interim till the end of the season we will see a difference in play and performances which might give us a bit of a kick up the arse in the cup.

then am half on the fence thinking, he should at least be given to the end of the season - let him finish the season we aren't going down (thank god there is actually worse teams then us at the moment) and we still have the semi.

So long as behind the scene working is going on with regards to a replacement shortlist and getting things in place am sound either way. There'll be less fume between now and the end of the season if he goes now, thats for sure.

 

[Moomin]

I don't agree with this. Aiming 6th with this squad is a fair shout. I can't endure the 30% winning rate in the league let alone the continuity of Martinez's regime. Ok I know he will not get the sack if he wins the cup but for me he is not the answer.

If he wins the FA cup wouldn't you agree he deserves another season?

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Took a team that finished 6th, spent 3 seasons and a shed load of money of it, added a 20 gaol striker for the first time in decades and only going back 3 places to 9th would be over achieving?

JESUS WEPT.... BADLY OVER THIS!