Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[technojoe]

Anyone got that pic of Bobby's face photo shopped on the cartoon with the room on fire saying "this is fine"...........

 

[D410]

Funnily enough @orly I got told something like this happened 2 weeks ago (am not WT). didn't know it had happened again though.

I think the accusation that players have not been happy at FF have been around for a long time.
It,s just a matter of time now.

 

[oldblue]

Great post OB, how forum discussion is supposed to be, the match just had the same old feeling. Yes individuals made mistakes, but it's a reoccurring theme, and has been unfortunately a hallmark of Martinez’s management, hence the calls to go.

I accept yesterday felt typical and I'm sitting there when we're dominating at the start thinking and even saying out loud 'this won't end well'. Which is ridiculous.
But where is this negativity coming from? I don't think one person can create a consistent sense of nervousness in this way. I'm partly convinced this is still that as a club we still haven't got used to going to Old Trafford and outplaying them. We don't trust it. We're much more comfortable with backs to the wall and let's just hope. It's been there for years. Don't see sacking the manager helping.

 

[orly]

Funnily enough @orly I got told something like this happened 2 weeks ago (am not WT). didn't know it had happened again though.

Cheers mate. Not convinced by it at all personally - and Jagielka should be ashamed of himself if he is organising a mid-season mutiny. Don't care how bad it is under Martinez, at least be sodding professional.

 

[Lanolin]

I think there's always going to be a glass half empty and half full view of whatever happens for the foreseeable future.
Man u are not as formidable as they have been but it's still a squad that on paper should be competing for the title. The player considered our best by a lot of people three years ago is considered a liability there. And even when United were under the likes of Atkinson it was a really tough place to go and get anything. Still is this season. I nearly always feel we can win but never expect to at Old Trafford.
Every independent source has said we should have got something.
So to my eyes they didn't create anything because we were a lot more solid in the middle and at the back. We didn't give them space where we thought it would hurt us. And there was some great recovery play. One strange moment apart we were as good as we ever were under Moyes defensively.
Problem was that the one area that we usually thrive in we looked flat. This is an area we need to shake up. Our squad is still short of in depth quality, it was an ageing team three years ago and now it's inexperienced. It's being rebuilt and in my opinion and we won't be good enough under anybody to challenge until there are three or four more players at optimum age either coming through or bought.
Problem with analysing it in anyway now is that every bad result is lumped into an argument that says it's not good enough and it's Martinez causing it. The danger for me in doing this is you gloss over everything else. You create a mood of hostility towards one person that means nobody else needs to take responsibility. And you potentially undermine any positives.
If people on here can't point out what they saw yesterday, even when it fits pretty closely with what independents sources say without being told it's all the same excuses, then it doesn't feel healthy to me.
I'm happy to change the manager but when the mood generally is frustration I'm not sure it's ever the best time. I'd rather we were looking at it from the position that things need improving results wise and that needs adjustments all over the club but not huge changes. Maybe the manager might be one of the changes at some point but let's see if an ideal candidate emerges further down the line.

I think both of these points highlight an issue with some fans who want Martinez to stay, in that they're an oft-repeated mantra, but don't really reflect the truth of the matter.

At times this season, our attacking play has been outstanding. I have no qualms about saying there have been occasions when I think we've looked unstoppable pouring forward. But some people seem to ignore that there have been numerous occasions when our attacking play has been insipid and ineffective. Yesterday wasn't a one off in that regard by any means, it was the third time in the last five league games that we haven't scored. There have been games from Spurs, Liverpool and United early in the season, to Swansea and the recent games, where we just haven't looked dangerous going forward. The idea that we can outgun teams at will has been well and truly put to bed.

The inexperience argument has just become a bit of a joke really. The 'optimum age' bracket currently has Robles, Coleman, Baines, Mori, McCarthy, Cleverley, Oviedo, Mirallas, Niasse, and Lennon. We then have veterans like Barry, Jagielka, Howard, Osman, Pienaar and Kone, alongside the youth of Stones, Deulofeu, Barkley, Besic and Lukaku. I'd say that's a pretty balanced squad make up to be honest, certainly not lacking in experience.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Cheers mate. Not convinced by it at all personally - and Jagielka should be ashamed of himself if he is organising a mid-season mutiny. Don't care how bad it is under Martinez, at least be sodding professional.

Basically what i was told was that there was nearly a full on kick off in training, Jags took the team into the changies to take the heat out of it - was then told a senior player made a call to Kenwright to talk about it all because its that bad in training.

I dunno how true it is - but i have been told on different occasions that training isn't a great place to be at the moment!

 

[DrEFC]

I accept yesterday felt typical and I'm sitting there when we're dominating at the start thinking and even saying out loud 'this won't end well'. Which is ridiculous.
But where is this negativity coming from? I don't think one person can create a consistent sense of nervousness in this way. I'm partly convinced this is still that as a club we still haven't got used to going to Old Trafford and outplaying them. We don't trust it. We're much more comfortable with backs to the wall and let's just hope. It's been there for years. Don't see sacking the manager helping.

This isn't a one off game though. We've been like this since his second season. Soft centred, defending poorly. I can't see beyond it being anything less than the managers fault. The players have no self belief, and I do not think its just because it's at OT. If a change in manager can't sort it, what is it? Sack the fans? Sack the defence and the CM's? It's still the man at the helm for me, boss.

 

[orly]

I think both of these points highlight an issue with some fans who want Martinez to stay, in that they're an oft-repeated mantra, but don't really relect the truth of the matter.

At times this season, our attacking play has been outstanding. I have no qualms about saying there have been occasions when I think we've looked unstoppable pouring forward. But some people seem to ignore that there have been numerous occasions when our attacking play has been insipid and ineffective. Yesterday wasn't a one off in that regard by any means, it was the third time in the last five league games that we haven't scored. There have been games from Spurs, Liverpool and United early in the season, to Swansea and the recent games, where we just haven't looked dangerous going forward. The idea that we can outgun teams at will has been well and truly put to bed.

The inexperience argument has just become a bit of a joke really. The 'optimum age' bracket currently has Robles, Coleman, Baines, Mori, McCarthy, Cleverley, Oviedo, Mirallas, Niasse, and Lennon. We then have veterans like Barry, Jagielka, Howard, Osman, Pienaar and Kone, alongside the youth of Stones, Deulofeu, Barkley, Besic and Lukaku. I'd say that's a pretty balanced squad make up to be honest, certainly not lacking in experience.

I've also just seen the argument that the squad he inherited wasn't comfortable in possession.

Notwithstanding the actual, on the pitch rebuttal of that argument that was the 2012 / 2013 season, neatly packaged for those short of memory in the win over, ahem, West Ham on the final day, it was a squad that contained Baines, Coleman, Gibson, Pienaar, Mirallas, Stones, Fellaini. All decent on the ball. Nobody that Martinez has brought in is better in possession than Pienaar. That is obvious.

As I've said earlier, if he was going down fighting, still trying to play a fast countering possession game, you could at least praise his commitment to an approach. But yesterday we banged it long at Lukaku (poor choice) and Lennon (mental choice).

 

[orly]

Basically what i was told was that there was nearly a full on kick off in training, Jags took the team into the changies to take the heat out of it - was then told a senior player made a call to Kenwright to talk about it all because its that bad in training.

I dunno how true it is - but i have been told on different occasions that training isn't a great place to be at the moment!

By senior player, I guess we are talking Osman here.

Well, maybe then. Also it sounds more like Jagielka was trying to wind it down rather than leading - but if this is true, and I'm very sceptical, it sounds like kids behaviour and pathetic.

 

[maccavennie]

Basically what i was told was that there was nearly a full on kick off in training, Jags took the team into the changies to take the heat out of it - was then told a senior player made a call to Kenwright to talk about it all because its that bad in training.

I dunno how true it is - but i have been told on different occasions that training isn't a great place to be at the moment!

I'd like to think all that is BS mate bit do you know what, when the players aren't putting a shift in and the manager isn't doing his job, they leave themselves open to all kinds of rumours which snowball.

If they pulled their fingers out their arses and looked like they care along with manager actually looking like he knew what he was supposed to be doing, there wouldn't be any rumours of unrest.

I've said it since last season Stoke away when Bobby should have been sacked - if I could sack half of this squad I would bin them straight off. Unfortunately that can't happen so next in the firing line is Martinez. We shouldn't be waiting until any semi final to make this decision, he should be sacked right now, today. Any kind of similar performance to Arsenal or Utd where we look toothless will see us pick up 0 points against Watford, Palace, Saints and I dread to think if we play like yesterday standing off what the RS will do. Not going to be much fun is it going into a semi final if these type of performances continue.

We need to do what's right for the good of the club and that is to get shut asap.

 

[Woolly Blue]

I think there's always going to be a glass half empty and half full view of whatever happens for the foreseeable future.
Man u are not as formidable as they have been but it's still a squad that on paper should be competing for the title. The player considered our best by a lot of people three years ago is considered a liability there. And even when United were under the likes of Atkinson it was a really tough place to go and get anything. Still is this season. I nearly always feel we can win but never expect to at Old Trafford.
Every independent source has said we should have got something.
So to my eyes they didn't create anything because we were a lot more solid in the middle and at the back. We didn't give them space where we thought it would hurt us. And there was some great recovery play. One strange moment apart we were as good as we ever were under Moyes defensively.
Problem was that the one area that we usually thrive in we looked flat. This is an area we need to shake up. Our squad is still short of in depth quality, it was an ageing team three years ago and now it's inexperienced. It's being rebuilt and in my opinion and we won't be good enough under anybody to challenge until there are three or four more players at optimum age either coming through or bought.
Problem with analysing it in anyway now is that every bad result is lumped into an argument that says it's not good enough and it's Martinez causing it. The danger for me in doing this is you gloss over everything else. You create a mood of hostility towards one person that means nobody else needs to take responsibility. And you potentially undermine any positives.
If people on here can't point out what they saw yesterday, even when it fits pretty closely with what independents sources say without being told it's all the same excuses, then it doesn't feel healthy to me.
I'm happy to change the manager but when the mood generally is frustration I'm not sure it's ever the best time. I'd rather we were looking at it from the position that things need improving results wise and that needs adjustments all over the club but not huge changes. Maybe the manager might be one of the changes at some point but let's see if an ideal candidate emerges further down the line.

The scoreline flattered ManU mate, we deserved a point, but the only reason we deserved a point was because they're a very average team. That United team has very little quality in it, but they worked hard and showed a fair amount of energy.

We more than matched them for energy in the first 20 minutes, but lost our way after that. If we'd been beat by a good United side, you couldn't really complain, but the lack of effort and ideas happens all too often.

We'll look a better side when Barry's back, but, at best, we're treading water at the moment.

 

[Abertonian]

By senior player, I guess we are talking Osman here.

Well, maybe then. Also it sounds more like Jagielka was trying to wind it down rather than leading - but if this is true, and I'm very sceptical, it sounds like kids behaviour and pathetic.

Guess we'll find out in his next tell all tome. It's not really a stretch to think that there has been stuff going on at FF the last few weeks when you look at how flat we were in the arsenal and manure games.

 

[oldblue]

The inexperience argument has just become a bit of a joke really. The 'optimum age' bracket currently has Robles, Coleman, Baines, Mori, McCarthy, Cleverley, Oviedo, Mirallas, Niasse, and Lennon..

I'd only consider five of those to be at optimum age for their position and only two of them of that age to be performing consistently. For a squad as opposed to team that's really not ideal

 

[Peter Reid's hard tackle]

I'm new to the forum and hate to introduce myself with a negative post, but here goes-

I believe that Martinez needs to go as soon as a replacement is identified (no easy feat I know). As a club we've been treading water for 2 years now. Lessons aren't being learned. He can't find a balance between our attractive creative play and defensive, well basics really. He's had nearly 2 years to rectify this and only recently has admitted that we have a problem.

A new manager could lift us for the final few games, give us the FA Cup and create a feelgood factor that might convince Lukaku and Stones to stay for at least another year. Under Martinez, I think they will leave.

 

[Thomasc]

I am failing to see any level of debate worthwhile any more, obvious forum WUM apart.

We simply are rubbish at winning football matches under this manager and his dubious coaching staff and the players look like they don't care too much either.

somebody please put an end to this nightmare and pull the trigger so we can return to some optimism, there is simply non around at present.