Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[nsno-chris]

1 - Martinez should have dropped Howard a long time ago (the fans have been screaming for it)

2 - I don't see how Stones/Jagielka can't play together in a top 4 team, we're talking international quality centre halves here

3 - Are they? Coleman and Baines are known for their attacking play but that doesn't make them weak defensively, I think this is another case of Martinez's open style of football resulting in players being blamed for not being solid enough

4 - Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Barkley, Cleverley... What is the issue?

5 - Granted we don't have a left midfield player, and in fairness Martinnez has tried to address this, but that fact alone is not enough to turn around and say "see, we do belong in mid-table".

I love the defence argument that he put to you, it's hilarious that 5 international footballers are not deemed good enough for us. It's so laughable

 

[davek]

@The Esk @davek

A-- The "solid platform" was surely Moyes leaving a stable club after 11 years at the helm?

B -- The "Game changer" is that Martinez style needed to be embedded top to bottom. This doesnt evolve overnight so perhaps 3 years (until the end of this season) is a fair point to start assessing?

C -- The 'disruptive energy' from wholesale changes has been masked by Martinez positivity. He has almost changed the entire squad as well as the ethos in a rapid timeframe. However theres still old players not even in the squad now left from Moyes lingering around till summer.

D-- With the money he has spent in correlation to others and bearing in mind the value and quality of the players as well as them being effective in a different system he's enormously improved the midfield and attack. I dont think this is disputed -- has he improved the defence? Short term of course not but he hasnt focused on this area (really only swapping distin for Mori + Howard for 2nd choice Robles).

E-- If all is being considered, he hasnt signed the left winger he wants nor does he have full backs to fit the system. Additionally he also hasnt had the money to sign the central midfielder needed all season (we just need to look at injuries to McCarthy/Besic to see this).

I think if "Fair is Fair" then we accept that it takes time to build his own "solid platform" and allow him to bring in his own players to suit his style.

I also think its naive, ridiculous and even laughable to say we should be competing in the top 4...

1-- Keeper issue
2-- New centre back partnership
3-- Full backs who are weak defensively
4-- Central midifield issues
5-- No left midfield players

Just picking out a few top kids and saying they should be driving us to top 4 (which it seems the argument is) seems incredible to me.

Martinez i think most agree will sign most of the players needed above this summer.

Lukaku stays = brilliant
lukaku goes = the focus should be on the squad as a whole not just one player...

We were never going to be 4th, 8th was realistic.

Three seasons is nothing mate, you are quite right. It's especially nothing at this club which affords time to managers...which is what I've been saying.

What you dont factor in though is the enormous levels of entitlement that have infected the fanbase with the promise of Moshiri - which has been widely interpreted as Everton now being able to go out and get Mourinho in and hand him £300M to win the title as he did at Chelsea first time around.

Let's see what happens though. We have a huge chance of winning something with a small amount of luck and then if any moves are made to unseat an Everton manager securing silverware after 2 decades all hell will break lose if the club didn't progress from there.

These are very high stakes.

 

[The Esk]

enormous levels of entitlement

Since when has accountability and ambition equated to entitlement?

 

[willo30]

Three seasons is nothing mate, you are quite right. It's especially nothing at this club which affords time to managers...which is what I've been saying.

What you dont factor in though is the enormous levels of entitlement that have infected the fanbase with the promise of Moshiri - which has been widely interpreted as Everton now being able to go out and get Mourinho in and hand him £300M to win the title as he did at Chelsea first time around.

Let's see what happens though. We have a huge chance of winning something with a small amount of luck and then if any moves are made to unseat an Everton manager securing silverware after 2 decades all hell will break lose if the club didn't progress from there.

These are very high stakes.

Don't get this affording managers time. Where does it come from? If you look back we change managers every 3-4 years. Moyes and Kendall were the exception rather than the rule.

 

[davek]

Dave's latest rebuttal asked two questions which he believed I have failed to address. For ease I have quoted his questions and my previous responses

Thanks. The inadequacy of each answer is shown to good effect.

Anyway, what does it matter if 'what's about to happen' is about to happen, eh?

 

[bring the ghost on]

3. Yes [Coleman and Baines are poor defensively]

Baines and Coleman are not bad defensive players. They're attacking full backs, granted, but they can more than put a shift in at the back, and showed this year after year under Moyes.

As @nsno-chris says, totally bizarre that the Martinez fans are blaming our 5 international defenders for our lack of opportunity to reach the top 4.

 

[Eggs]

.....RM must take responsibility for our league position but I'm not sure anybody is particularly to blame if Lukaku leaves as I suspect the same noises would've been made had we finished in the top 4.

 

[McBain]

first time poster: flame off

You know, I get it. I really do. I'm fifty years old and have followed Everton all my life. And still, after all this time I cannot be talked to for the first thirty minutes after we lose a game. Especially when it feels like we just weren't trying. If we're outplayed, outgunned and out manoeuvred then I can live with it. But, truthfully, those kind of games are few and far between. These days, when we lose, it's because the team just did not gel. Basics get missed and the Manager just does not seem to have a plan B. So (to get back on topic) when I hear players and their agents talking bullshit about wanting to be somewhere else, I just think [Poor language removed] Them. If they don't want to play for us, [Poor language removed] jog on. And that goes for Lukaku, Stones, Mirallas and anyone else who thinks they are too good for the shirt. Everton is a family, a marriage. And it's for the long haul, or not at all. Lukaku is a great player. One of the most consistent strikers I've had the privilege of seeing play for us. But if he does not want to be here then thanks for the memories and see you later.

Post of the moment. Summed up superbly mate.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Three seasons is nothing mate, you are quite right. It's especially nothing at this club which affords time to managers.

Are you saying that if the club was more ruthless, then Martinez wouldn't take over 3 years to sort himself out?

 

[davek]

Since when has accountability and ambition equated to entitlement?

Accountability for what exactly? For using the pre-Moshiri levels of squad investment to get us a record PL points total and to a point in both cups where we've never been in one season for a couple of decades, for playing in an 'ambitious' manner and scoring bags of open play goals, for using his influence to sign and bring through some of the best talent we've had for years?

 

[kithnou]

first time poster: flame off

You know, I get it. I really do. I'm fifty years old and have followed Everton all my life. And still, after all this time I cannot be talked to for the first thirty minutes after we lose a game. Especially when it feels like we just weren't trying. If we're outplayed, outgunned and out manoeuvred then I can live with it. But, truthfully, those kind of games are few and far between. These days, when we lose, it's because the team just did not gel. Basics get missed and the Manager just does not seem to have a plan B. So (to get back on topic) when I hear players and their agents talking bullshit about wanting to be somewhere else, I just think [Poor language removed] Them. If they don't want to play for us, [Poor language removed] jog on. And that goes for Lukaku, Stones, Mirallas and anyone else who thinks they are too good for the shirt. Everton is a family, a marriage. And it's for the long haul, or not at all. Lukaku is a great player. One of the most consistent strikers I've had the privilege of seeing play for us. But if he does not want to be here then thanks for the memories and see you later.

Fine first offering mate

 

[sageyefc]

Baines and Coleman are not bad defensive players. They're attacking full backs, granted, but they can more than put a shift in at the back, and showed this year after year under Moyes.

As @nsno-chris says, totally bizarre that the Martinez fans are blaming our 5 international defenders for our lack of opportunity to reach the top 4.

Theyre both poor defensively, granted Coleman has improved ten fold, though still gets caught out with his positioning an awful lot. Baines needs someone in front of him to help him out, no one does it aswell as pienaar used to, we've looked much more sound when galloway or oviedo played

 

[JinkyBlue]

wheres the Tony Grant Money gone?

 

[meagher94]

.....RM must take responsibility for our league position but I'm not sure anybody is particularly to blame if Lukaku leaves as I suspect the same noises would've been made had we finished in the top 4.

Don't buy this personally. If we were top 4 this year then we'd be an exciting young team going places - don't see why any of our players wouldn't want to carry on into the CL.

We would've got minimum 1 more season out of Lukaku if we'd got top 4 imo.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Theyre both poor defensively, granted Coleman has improved ten fold, though still gets caught out with his positioning an awful lot. Baines needs someone in front of him to help him out, no one does it aswell as pienaar used to, we've looked much more sound when galloway or oviedo played

We're talking in the context of whether we have a top 4 squad, and I can't look at Coleman and Baines and say they can't play to that standard.