Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

WOW! Did you actually just write that?

I dont think it's a view exclusive to me mate.

The EL is a marathon that delivers hardly any cash and is so long it destroys a domestic season.

 

[Goat]

I dont think it's a view exclusive to me mate.

The EL is a marathon that delivers hardly any cash and is so long it destroys a domestic season.

tottingham hotterspurs

 

[JAYTALITY]

Considering 96% of your argument in defence of martinez is centred around 'the 72 point wonderful achievement season' dave isn't that a little hypocritical of you critising someone else using past seasons performance as a yardstick?

The excitement around the Moshiri takeover taking us to the next level is people hoping it will take us from the level we had been at - ie around the spurs level up and to distance ourselves from the pack of teams that has customarily been 'middle of the pack' in the true sense of the word and that are now alarmingly above us - and for us to being able to challenge the level above that - the Arsenal level if you will, ofc the last two seasons has seen spurs and us move a huge distance apart from the customary 1 or 2 place difference either way we have had for a long time with them, the difference between Martinez and pochettino shall we call as being the chief reason that gulf has happened?

Dave when will you realsie that a points total achieved in one season only matters in terms of where it gets you finishing in that season, who cares if 72 would have finished us in 4th a lot of seasons - they where different seasons with different strength of teams, christ mate it's like the rs saying that their points total for the 2013/14 season when they came second would have won them the league in 2010/11, 2002/2003 or 2000/2001 - simple fact - they didn't so it doesn't matter one little bit what they got, they came second, we came 5th not 4th and so fantastic we got 72 points - but what did that actually matter, spurs also got 69 points in that season as well btw - just 3 short of their record ever total in the prem - they sacked their manager that summer and hired a much better one. Said repeatedly to you as well AVB got a club record 72 points with Spurs mate - didn't see Spurs fans tearing their hair out when he left them though

Also you alarmingly don't ever vgive Moyes a huge amount of credit for that aberration of a points total do you? Can vault my past opinions of Moyes and you will see i hated the bloke, but even i can admit that Martinez sucess can now be judged by his track record before and after that first season to have hugely beneffited from the Moyes fitness and discipline instilled in the players, something that has now completely been eroded

Built a club from the ahses - assume you mean Swansea - yeah he did a very good job putting in a style of football and system in place their - and a few managers afterward came along and improved the teams performance and got them to where martinez failed to do - promoted to the prem, and they kept them their as well - something martinez ultimatley yet again failed to do, so in many ways Martinez at Swansea did what on the continent they would hire a director of football to do - and frankly mate that is what he would be best suited to, implement a system and stlye of play, bring playert sin and then leave the job of managing them to someone who actually is a better manager than he has shown himself plainly to be.

Alex McCleish also got the FA Cup for a smiliarly crap Birmingham side mate, can list a fair few other managers who will hardly be lauded in years to come for being great managers. Ultimately his job was to keep Wigan in the league and he failed to do so, you really reckon that clubs at the bottom hire managers with the remit of 'get us a cup and we don't mind going down' or do you think they hire saying 'keep us in the league at all costs'?

Wow, a logical and reasonable assessment of the situation. This will surely make Dave reassess the situation and maybe not perhaps change his mind completely but atleast awknowledge the readings appear to reflect badly on Martinez in some aspects.

Not bloody likely!

I've yet to read on but from my experience and I have raised most of them points with Dave he will pick at one or two of the multiple points raised and move the goal posts with what he will think is clever loopholling. He will probably make a hypocrit out of himself in the progress. I'll read on to find out..

 

[Saint Domingo]

Shhh, dont mention that Spurs are managing a title challenge whilst playing in the Europa, its to much for Dave to handle.

Remember 07/08? Boss football, semi final league cup (apparently a huge achievement these days) good run in the Europa and requalifucation for Europe in the same season. Apparently impossible nowadays unless you spend quarter of a billion.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

As for your point: there's no use using Wigan's season stats

No?

We'll see a bit less of this in future then, eh?

 

[Goat]

Remember 07/08? Boss football, semi final league cup (apparently a huge achievement these days) good run in the Europa and requalifucation for Europe in the same season. Apparently impossible nowadays unless you spend quarter of a billion.

Everything dave claims is impossible, Moyes has already done.

With less money.

Moyes failed, but he still got us a cup final, CL football and 3 Semi finals, plus some half decent Europa runs and a constant top 7 finish.

IMPOSSIBRU

 

[Titus Bramble]

No?

We'll see a bit less of this in future then, eh?

Christ it would be awesome if he did that this season

 

[Saint Domingo]

No?

We'll see a bit less of this in future then, eh?

No mate you still don't get it, Martinez was solely responsible for that trophy. It's his. Not the keeper who stopped the final being a rout, not the midfielder who scored from a set piece they didn't even practise, no, it was purely Martinez's.

The relegation? Nothing to do with Roberto. Stabbed in the back by players/referees/home fans/ Whelan/unforeseen tectonic plate movement beneath the DW (delete as appropriate). #anyonebutroberto

 

[davek]

Bournmouth 0
West Brom 1
Stoke 0
Newcastle 0
Carlisle 0 (yeah still going to include it even though its against a lower league team)
Man City 3
Swansea 2
Chelsea 3
Man City 0
Dagenham and Redbrige 0 (yeah another jke team but will include it also)
Man City 1
Spurs 1

Thats not 8 goals conceded in 12 games mate - it is 11 goals in 12 games - and thats including 2 games against lower league sides that we had clean sheets in, also as for that 12 game stretch being a period tight at the back, right in the middle of that stretch of games we conceded 8 goals in 3 games - knocked out the cup, lost to swansea 2-1 at home and threw away a 2 goals lead and then a 3-2 lead against Chelsea, hardly stirling defensive grit was it?

15 goals conceded in the 15 games since the New Year. One per game. A disastrous defensive performance overall, or really pretty decent all told?

Doesn't look to me like the picture of defensive catastrophe you're trying to paint.

 

[Goat]

Somebody get a fork for David cos hes DONE.

 

[Stanley Parker]

But to create space for Deulofeu and Lennon to provide the cross, we are using the full back to make the forward run to commit the opposition full back. The result is the same, the full back is pushed on. Look at the conceded goal against Chelsea, we're 2-0 up and Oviedo bombs forward, it breaks down and Fabregas, under no pressure, hits a long pass to play in Costa who is man for man with Jags. Most sides would have an extra man at the back and not be man for man. At 2-0 up most sides wouldn't have Oviedo bombing forward either. That goal was easily avoided, but yet people will point to the contribution Jags/Howard made and think it was individual error, when in fact the route cause was the system.

On the left hand side we're pretty much still using the full back to provide the width and the cross. With the player ahead of him cutting inside. Be that Baines, Ovideo or Galloway, it's been largely the same.

Barry's role has been to take the ball from the defence and start the play. Barry has played well this season in what he has done, but in this system the game is so open when sides attack us he can't possibly cover enough ground to close off the space. Bear in mind I'm mostly talking about when we don't have the ball and the affects that our possession and attacking style, are having on the midfield. If you open the game up so much, like Martinez seems to do, then you need great mobility for the midfield to get back if it breaks down, and discipline for them not to get caught ahead of the play.

I know what I want, I want a system that suits the players we have. Not one that relies on players having extraordinary work rates to cover ground, or face having the game open up with loads of gaps for the opposition to exploit.

I want a manager who can organise the team to be able to defend crosses. If we don't have the aerial ability in the box to defend them, then we need to stop them coming in. But we neither put pressure on the ball, or attack the ball when it comes in to our own box. Earlier in the season, people blamed Howard for not coming for the crosses. Seems Joel doesn't either, and I believe it's because we don't pressure the ball and instead allow sides to pick out good crosses in to the box.

I think the squad Everton have is a really good one. I believe a better manager would get a lot more out of the players, by making the side harder to beat. Harder to break down, and play to the strengths of the players within the side. I honestly don't think it makes too much of a difference which players Martinez has in the side, if he continues to play the same system he does, then we will not be in full control of our own destiny and wont achieve anything. I don't think it'd take too much away from the attacking either. We'd just do it more efficiently.

If you want to defend a 2-0 lead, the first task is to score two goals. So you have to create scoring chances somehow.

But I'm not sure that you should always defend a two goal lead. If you hand possession to the opposition, you inevitably let them take the initiative. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.

And while every goal goes past the goalkeeper, the goalkeeper is not at fault for every goal.

 

[davek]

Ok mate, so premiership points totals matter hugely is what you are saying and they should be used as a barometre of where we are headed

2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th
2013-14 38 13 3 3 38 19 8 6 5 23 20 +22 72 5th
2014-15 38 7 7 5 27 21 5 4 10 21 29 -2 47 11th

Their you go last season martinez managed the lowest total by the club over the proceeding 10 years, so yup one great points total and it was followed by the worst points total by this club in 11 years, we havent had a lot to shout about for a long time granted, but last season was the first one in the last 11 that i felt we had a genuine chance to go down in, clap clap Bobby, great job

Why did you stop short of the 2003/04 season mate?

Oh yeah: the worst club points total amassed in 44 years by Moyes that had us at 17th in the table.

It must have slipped your mind.

 

[Stanley Parker]

15 goals conceded in the 15 games since the New Year. One per game. A disastrous defensive performance overall, or really pretty decent all told?

Doesn't look to me like the picture of defensive catastrophe you're trying to paint.

Does this include the ridiculous goals given by the referees at Chelsea and Manchester City?

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

If you want to defend a 2-0 lead, the first task is to score two goals. So you have to create scoring chances somehow.

But I'm not sure that you should always defend a two goal lead. If you hand possession to the opposition, you inevitably let them take the initiative. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.

And while every goal goes past the goalkeeper, the goalkeeper is not at fault for every goal.

Would normally agree mate, especially if your the team on top, problem was though we were down to 10 men and looked knackered, against West Ham the last 15 minutes should have been a case of parking the bus, and we could have still countered when they were bombing forward.

 

[Saint Domingo]

15 goals conceded in the 15 games since the New Year. One per game. A disastrous defensive performance overall, or really pretty decent all told?

Doesn't look to me like the picture of defensive catastrophe you're trying to paint.

Since when is conceding one a game cause for celebration? Especially when you factor in two pub teams and Bournemouth reserves? Take them out and the defensive record is still pretty poor. Depends of course what your standards are, I'm sure it's perfectly acceptable for you.