Fitness

[daz4matty]

Its like going to a restaurant paying 90 quid and getting the same tosh you hated last time but you know you should never have gone back. I cant go to a game excited anymore as i always know something negative will happen and generally it does at home.

I feel for you matchgoers.
I used to go in the 80's and early 90's nothing like it.

 

[thirdmantackle]

Over training is a huge part of fitness.

Are the head of sports science or strength & conditioning in the club up to the task?

 

[bunky]

It's a valid point to question the fitness of the team. The number of times we have conceded late goals is way too many to be coincidental.

Imagine where we'd be with better conditioning and the mentality to park the bus and protect a lead.

 

[magicjuan]

But we were talking about pre season and Villareal not being good enough, not the league.

and the implication being that pre season is used to gain fitness, which hasn't happened still, if you're not 'fit' in pre season to a greater degree, due to the demands of the league, you'll always have to play catch up. 2 seasons we've been doing that.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

It's a valid point to question the fitness of the team. The number of times we have conceded late goals is way too many to be coincidental.

Imagine where we'd be with better conditioning and the mentality to park the bus and protect a lead.

Not so sure here, we could be less fit and have different tactics in the last 10-15 mins of a game, designed to protect what we had and shut the game down, and do better than we are now. Our late collapses are more due to with a lack of game management appreciation, poo substitutions and our general rubbishness at heading away crosses and aerial set pieces.

 

[Groucho]

and the implication being that pre season is used to gain fitness, which hasn't happened still, if you're not 'fit' in pre season to a greater degree, due to the demands of the league, you'll always have to play catch up. 2 seasons we've been doing that.

2014/15 certainly - 2013/14 was already arranged when Martinez arrived.

Don't recall this season's pre season being as non-existent as the one before though, maybe my memory has blocked it all out.

And as I say, from what I saw, they didn't run out of steam in that game, in fact we got a goal back near the end and nearly equalised after being 2-0 down (which was the last game, the week before the season started IIRC). That suggests to me that they had worked on fitness.

Perhaps we're talking cross purposes here though.

 

[hibbo'sclass]

2014/15 certainly - 2013/14 was already arranged when Martinez arrived.

Don't recall this season's pre season being as non-existent as the one before though, maybe my memory has blocked it all out.

And as I say, from what I saw, they didn't run out of steam in that game, in fact we got a goal back near the end and nearly equalised after being 2-0 down (which was the last game, the week before the season started IIRC). That suggests to me that they had worked on fitness.

Perhaps we're talking cross purposes here though.

With all due respect, Villareal was (as you say) our last pre-season match, whereas Villareal had 3 more as their season started late August, so you would expect us to be fitter and further along the road to preparedness than them.
From my seat didn't appear to be the case, we were at the same level, and it should also be taken into account that 5 substitutes excluding Dunc were used.
I don't believe that the players fitness is given the priority it deserves imho.

 

[jceverton]

Couple of things. Read a comment on another site that said we'd be second if the games finished on 75 minutes. Haven't checked it out but it seems right. Secondly looked at some stats on average distance covered by teams in Premier League. In October we were 19 out of 20, and we were underperforming Bournemouth by approximately 13km a game (118 to 105). From Christmas we're 9th about 7k off Spurs (117 to 110). Wish I could see it month by month, but looking at both of those things (distance and late goals concede) I think we could definitely be fitter.

 

[Groucho]

With all due respect, Villareal was (as you say) our last pre-season match, whereas Villareal had 3 more as their season started late August, so you would expect us to be fitter and further along the road to preparedness than them.
From my seat didn't appear to be the case, we were at the same level, and it should also be taken into account that 5 substitutes excluding Dunc were used.
I don't believe that the players fitness is given the priority it deserves imho.

Fair enough, although I didn't think we ran out of steam, personally.

Perhaps it isn't priority though - should it be? Or should all aspects be worked on equally in pre season?

I'm not knocking the value of fitness, but cast your mind back to 2003/4 - Moyes' side were dead fit but rubbish and finished 17th. For me, pre season should look at the whole package of team performance (including fitness).

 

[malcson]

First of all - I'm not calling players lazy or even unfit particularly, and this isn't a criticism of Martinez, as I am one of his biggest fans on here at the moment seemingly.

I played Rugby at a decent(ish) level, high enough to have a paid fitness coach. One of the things he always said, which has stuck with me, is that tiredness doesn't just affect your speed and strength, but also affects your decision making and reaction times. This is what I want to address, with yet another winning position turned over in the last 10 minutes.

In the case of the West Ham game, being considerably more tired than the opposition can be understood, and forgiven, given that the players had to play 65 minutes with a man down, doing the extra work. I saw that Barkley ran the most in the game (I think), yet in the last 10 minutes he couldn't close down at all. As I say no criticism of him, I don't consider him 'lazy', but I think its a sign of the technique over fitness approach Martinez has installed.

I remember when Martinez first took over, and everyone was saying about how Moyes wouldn't get the balls out for the first week of pre-season (or whatever it was) just working on fitness, whereas Martinez had the balls out from minute one (ooh Matron). Possibly the reason we are letting goals in is because we are losing that 5% due to less fitness than other sides, and so are reacting slower in the final 10 minutes. It seems to me Deulofeu has fitness issues, and Lukaku looks like needs a break, as does Barkley.

In my opinion, Niasse for Lennon was a like for like switch as Lennon played the role of second striker during the second half. Personally, I would have brought on Deulofeu, but the point is, possibly the reason for the switch in momentum wasn't tactical, but merely fitness issues?

I've been saying for weeks, that the only logical answer for our late capitulation in games is a lack of stamina. It would make sense to me that MArtinez did so well in his first season with a new brand of football being played by a team carrying Moyes regime fitness levels.

 

[malcson]

So lasting 90 mins against a good Spanish team doesn't translate as fit? What does then?

I'd say that was decent, result notwithstanding.

"lasting" is not the measure, performing for 90 minutes is. We lost to Villareal a team not fully fit, not the best in the Spanish league just before our season started to a goal scored in the last third of the game. Sounds like the pattern for our season.

 

[hibbo'sclass]

Fair enough, although I didn't think we ran out of steam, personally.

Perhaps it isn't priority though - should it be? Or should all aspects be worked on equally in pre season?

I'm not knocking the value of fitness, but cast your mind back to 2003/4 - Moyes' side were dead fit but rubbish and finished 17th. For me, pre season should look at the whole package of team performance (including fitness).

Couldn't agree more about the Moyes side and not only 03/04. We seemed to have fitness to burn, but the playing side seemed to be neglected.
I think both managers' pre-seasons appear to be diametrically opposed. We need Goldilocks for our next manager.
Sorry to go off topic but one final thing - as GOT sawdust meister in chief, why does my phone put smileys at the start?

 

[Groucho]

Couldn't agree more about the Moyes side and not only 03/04. We seemed to have fitness to burn, but the playing side seemed to be neglected.
I think both managers' pre-seasons appear to be diametrically opposed. We need Goldilocks for our next manager.
Sorry to go off topic but one final thing - as GOT sawdust meister in chief, why does my phone put smileys at the start?

You can move the cursor after selecting the smileys option.

But yes, an in between of Moyes and Martinez would be ideal.

He's out there, but who is he?

 

[DualityNSNO]

You can move the cursor after selecting the smileys option.

But yes, an in between of Moyes and Martinez would be ideal.

He's out there, but who is he?

 

[Groucho]

David Martinez? Roberto Moyes?