Roberto Martinez discussion

[Khalekan]

Didn't know where to post this so thought i should post this here.

I didn't realise Chelsea were as "high" up that table.

 

[BlueToff]

But it did count.

And to say we both conceded and scored a goal in stoppage time at Chelsea as well as Bournemouth is nowt more than a simple statement of fact.

As I've said mate, i haven't got an issue with the Bournemouth one.

But you can't just shirk the Chelsea one off and blame it on the team/manager.

The defence, on that occasion, did their job by getting Terry caught in a clearly offside position when the official was level with play.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Right...

I've said numerous times i'm not bothered about last season - and if people insist on taking last season into account they should also balance that our with the first season.

Focusing on this season, no everything is not fine but it's in no way as bad as people who are dead set on wanting Martinez out claim it to be.

We've got some very good players overall and we've played much better in a lot of games this season. For a combination of reasons we haven't been able to turn all of those performances into wins which is very frustrating.

Yes, we aspire to be the best that we can and we're playing the best standard of football we have in years. Because of that i'm more than willing to give RM more time to get it right, as I believe we're almost there - though there is definitely some changes and tweaks that could still be made the manager isn't getting sacked so he needs the room and breathing space to get it right.

It's also not down to just him, but the players as well, who if they are as good as everybody says they are need to step up and start putting away the chances they create and doing simple things, like not losing their players at set-pieces, better - especially the experienced ones.

The home form is a worry as it seems that teams are much more comfortable facing us at Goodison than away from home. We seem to panic much more at Goodison whereas away we feel less pressure and normally get the results.

We aren't a development school either, as now we no longer need to sell. The TV money has made sure of that for every premier league club and if a big player is to leave we will get more than a fair fee for them - hell we even get big money for fringe players.

Reasons, give me the reasons. Same rules as before.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I didn't realise Chelsea were as "high" up that table.

I can feel the next excuse being crafted already. 'It's a freak season for home goals conceded, look at Chelsea, macro European trends from away performances outside of Martinez's control, the earth is spinning on a new trajectory affecting the whole league except for 19 other teams'. Will be interesting to see what logic defying excuse comes out this time.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Just listening to the presser, when i said i wouldn't. I genuinely wonder if he is on the wind up sometimes now.

As I've said mate, i haven't got an issue with the Bournemouth one.

But you can't just shirk the Chelsea one off and blame it on the team/manager.

The defence, on that occasion, did their job by getting Terry caught in a clearly offside position when the official was level with play.

The ball should never have been allowed to be that far up the pitch without more pressure, in my opinion. There was a lot wrong before it got to Terry.

Offside or not, we didn't get the 3 points we should have.

Decisions balance themselves out over the season usually, we won't moan when some of our goals look offside, so can't point the finger at the poor officials.

We are not set up to shut up shop, after going up 3-2 up in injury time. Which is extremely poor.

 

[mkrudden]

What has been the problem then? Every time something is raised the answer always turns into 'actually everything is fine you're wrong'. Please explain the last 18 months without using the words 'unlucky, if, referees, inexperience, other teams have money, Moyes'. Please also remember to do it in the context of a team that aspires to be the best and is currently one of the biggest sides in the English game, not some developmental school for other teams talent.

Translation:

"Try explaining the last 18 months without using any reasonable reasoning which doesn't suit my agenda".

 

[BlueToff]

I can feel the next excuse being crafted already. 'It's a freak season for home goals conceded, look at Chelsea, macro European trends from away performances outside of Martinez's control, the earth is spinning on a new trajectory affecting the whole league except for 19 other teams'. Will be interesting to see what logic defying excuse comes out this time.

Well you'd be wrong.

Three prem teams in the top five does show that it isn't just us with defensive issues, though.

 

[BlueToff]

Just listening to the presser, when i said i wouldn't. I genuinely wonder if he is on the wind up sometimes now.


The ball should never have been allowed to be that far up the pitch without more pressure, in my opinion. There was a lot wrong before it got to Terry.

Offside or not, we didn't get the 3 points we should have.

Decisions balance themselves out over the season usually, we won't moan when some of our goals look offside, so can't point the finger at the poor officials.

We are not set up to shut up shop, after going up 3-2 up in injury time. Which is extremely poor.

They don't. Penalty calls, maybe, as they are subjective.

Losing three points at the end of the game when it was a minute over the allotted time and offside - clearly effects the result.

Just as Sterling taking the ball out of play in a semi-final won't 'even itself out'.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

They don't. Penalty calls, maybe, as they are subjective.

Losing three points at the end of the game when it was a minute over the allotted time and offside - clearly effects the result.

Just as Sterling taking the ball out of play in a semi-final won't 'even itself out'.

I could probably count a couple of goals we have scored this season which have looked offside, plus one or two more opposition managers have moaned about.

We should be just as much looking at ourselves as the officials - officiating has been bad this year i agree, however like bournemouth we shouldn't have had the ball anywhere near our box in them games.

The stirling one was baffling, but we had 6 defenders in the box too. Not like he squared it into an empty box.

 

[BlueToff]

Just listening to the presser, when i said i wouldn't. I genuinely wonder if he is on the wind up sometimes now.


The ball should never have been allowed to be that far up the pitch without more pressure, in my opinion. There was a lot wrong before it got to Terry.

Offside or not, we didn't get the 3 points we should have.

Decisions balance themselves out over the season usually, we won't moan when some of our goals look offside, so can't point the finger at the poor officials.

We are not set up to shut up shop, after going up 3-2 up in injury time. Which is extremely poor.

We were as well though... we were defending with two banks of four and it was Deulofeu who took the decision upon himself to try and run it away from goal. That wasn't Martinez who made that mistake.

And even when teams do shut up shop, they still concede crosses into the box etc. Our defence played an offside trap that worked. It was good defending and bad officiating yet it's Martinez who gets the blame?

Get a grip.

I've said numerous times that there aren't such excuses for Bournemouth or Norwich etc.

But when there is a viable reason totally out of RM's control that resulted in us not winning a game, yet he still gets the blame, then it's extrmely annoying.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Translation:

"Try explaining the last 18 months without using any reasonable reasoning which doesn't suit my agenda".

No, would like reasons for 18 months of underachievement that attribute even 1% responsibility to the manager. Some people would have you believe we're just caught in a perfect storm of bad luck and inexperience. My only agenda is for a better Everton, currently Martinez in my opinion is impeding that, as soon as he stops doing that I'll have no issue with him whatsoever.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

We were as well though... we were defending with two banks of four and it was Deulofeu who took the decision upon himself to try and run it away from goal. That wasn't Martinez who made that mistake.

And even when teams do shut up shop, they still concede crosses into the box etc. Our defence played an offside trap that worked. It was good defending and bad officiating yet it's Martinez who gets the blame?

Get a grip.

I've said numerous times that there aren't such excuses for Bournemouth or Norwich etc.

But when there is a viable reason totally out of RM's control that resulted in us not winning a game, yet he still gets the blame, then it's extrmely annoying.

Erm, off your high horse there mate, have i made reference to Martinez in any of the posts about these games? no.

See this is the problem i have with this thread, one set of people point the blame at martinez, one set of people point the blame at anyone but him - and another set of people who are saying things as they see it.

Our defence never played an off side trap at all - Jagielka made a piss poor challenge and we allowed the ball into our box.

But - no point even debating the subject, if everything going to be pulled back to - its not Martinez fault. Am debating game management, by players and the coaching staff, am not blaming anyone.

 

[BlueToff]

Reasons, give me the reasons. Same rules as before.

But you told me not to mention our young squad, or bad luck with the refs etc...

They are some of the reasons.

Other reasons include Howard. Howard who was picked by Martinez, which is stupid from him and i've said that many times. However, even then, people are claiming that all of that is down to Martinez and somehow claiming Howard is in no way to blame for his own form, which is mental.

Prior to Christmas we had a run from Bournemouth onwards (with McCarthy out, I may add, which never helps) where we dominated some games and couldn't get over the line, before we got beat by Leicester after two stupid decisions from players to go down and gift them two penalties. Again, it's not Martinez who tells Mori to dive in on Okazaki or Howard on Vardy...

Appeared to turn a corner at Newcastle but the Stoke game put us back again.

Since then, in the league, we've looked to be more solid while still trying to retain our attacking edge.

It's getting the balance right and in the last few games we have done - even vs WBA.

The main thing is also Lukaku. We need a way of allowing him to become less isolated while at the same time keeping solid in defence.

 

[BlueToff]

No, would like reasons for 18 months of underachievement that attribute even 1% responsibility to the manager. Some people would have you believe we're just caught in a perfect storm of bad luck and inexperience. My only agenda is for a better Everton, currently Martinez in my opinion is impeding that, as soon as he stops doing that I'll have no issue with him whatsoever.

But how can it be under-achieving?? That's the entire point. Your comparing it to his first season in charge but then when it comes to discussing why he should be sacked don't take that into account.

 

[BlueToff]

Erm, off your high horse there mate, have i made reference to Martinez in any of the posts about these games? no.

See this is the problem i have with this thread, one set of people point the blame at martinez, one set of people point the blame at anyone but him - and another set of people who are saying things as they see it.

Our defence never played an off side trap at all - Jagielka made a piss poor challenge and we allowed the ball into our box.

But - no point even debating the subject, if everything going to be pulled back to - its not Martinez fault. Am debating game management, by players and the coaching staff, am not blaming anyone.

Look back at my posts.

I attempt to make reasoned points and when there is reason to question/blame RM I do and will.

Chelsea isn't one of them.

And we did play an offside trap. Terry was caught offside by two yards after our defence moved forward. It's the definition of an offside trap.