- Status
Martinez is a mid-table manager at best. Last year we won 12 games out of 36, just under one third. So far this year we have played 26 and won 8, less than one third. We can keep talking about bad luck, great football to watch, great players, great potential but the facts speak for themselves, we fail to win over twice as many matches as we win.
I know that the situation with possible takeovers is worrying but the status quo is no less worrying, keep Martinez, keep winning 30% of the games we play, finish 11/12 th and then loss our better players to more successful clubs.
New owners, New manager, New approach while extremely concerning would seem to be our best hope.
Anyone who states they would want Tony Pullis, Big Sam or the like at Everton Football Club should be banned from the forum for bring the club into disrepute.
I know that the situation with possible takeovers is worrying but the status quo is no less worrying, keep Martinez, keep winning 30% of the games we play, finish 11/12 th and then loss our better players to more successful clubs.
New owners, New manager, New approach while extremely concerning would seem to be our best hope.
Anyone who states they would want Tony Pullis, Big Sam or the like at Everton Football Club should be banned from the forum for bring the club into disrepute.
kithnou
Player Valuation: £70m
I'll just pick myself up off the floor after that mate....
Mo' Better Blues
Player Valuation: £950k
I think your being a bit harsh @kithnou on McCarthy, don't get me wrong I think he's just a very good defensive midfielder, I don't expect him to offer much going forward, would look at him as similar to Eric Dier at Spuds (who we were led to believe had their eye on Macca before using Dier in that role), break up opposition and play the simple pass to Barry to get us going forward, he is very, very good at doing that... Agree on Kone, Alcaraz, Eto'o and McGeady, but the rest of his signings are IMO decent to very good (Obviously we'll need to see Holgate, Henen, Niasse and Leandro playing before they can be considered good, bad or indifferent)
kithnou
Player Valuation: £70m
That's fine mate. McCArthy can stay but not with Barry and Cleverley in the 11. My point with him is that many in here have him being a world class player.
I don't see him being in our starting 11 in a team that finishes top 4.
I hope I am wrong. I have been many times before.
Just look at my profile pic as proof
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Why?
He's brought 15 players in that have gotten games so far and can therefore be judged: out of them I'd say Kone, Alcarez and McGeady didn't work out and all the rest have been good to very good.
Over to you.
kithnou
Player Valuation: £70m
So mid table it is for the Everton then.
How is "good to very good" much more advanced to my "good to average" he has brought in along with the dross?
And the initial question I raised was in response that he has a good eye for talent.
All the Wigan lads, Eto'o, McGeady, Traore , Cleverley, Barry, Lennon ..can't think of any more it's late here....sure vary from good to utter dross.
But do these pickups as a whole indicate to you a highly skilled Manager in the transfer market?
At best mate you would say he has done ok (and that's because of Lukaku and Deulofeu raising the average).
Was Eto'o such a disaster? I mean, he came in scored some goals and then left. Not really a disaster eh.
Alcaraz wasnt great, McGeady wasnt great, Kone has scored some goals and enabled Lukaku to score a few as well. Not exactly Juan Sebastian Veron levels of failure to be honest.
Alcaraz wasnt great, McGeady wasnt great, Kone has scored some goals and enabled Lukaku to score a few as well. Not exactly Juan Sebastian Veron levels of failure to be honest.
At last a voice of reason and perspective. I know this is all about individual opinions lads, and the debate is vital. I happen to be right alongside TMQ in my opinion of where we are. I think Bob is grappling with an insanely high potential squad who he has brought together and coached in a new way of playing compared to previous stewards of our club. Parts of it he is very much going in the right direction (ie. the going forward bit) but with work to do on a 'plan B' - and here I do personally agree with many comments that Martinez needs to look at himself and make the necessary changes. Other parts are a work in progress and he appears to be working on them- as TMQ says 1 goal conceded in 4 games, not a panacea, but a tightening of grip. So still a work in progress and, IMHO, worthy of a bit more time to finish the project.
But I have to say, to the comment 'Sorry mate, but that's not the Everton I grew up with and love', wtf are you talking about mate? Did you grow up in the 1930's? With the notable exception of 4 years in the late sixties and likewise in the glorious mid-eighties, the team and individuals we have now are - IMHO - light years ahead of what we have had over the last 50 years that I've been watching EFC, and I include the Moyes era. I couldn't agree more that Martinez needs to learn and adapt - he's still young and he has a plan and he's slowly executing it. The Prem has many tales to tell of managers who have eventually become successful after shaky starts - SAF being the daddy of them all; Ranieri - did he just buy the luck this season we have allegedly lost? No, the Tinkerman changed and adapted - he's a lot older and more experienced that Bob... There is so much to like about the way we are playing these days, and some not to like, but - again IMHO - we are stronger and more technically competent as players and a team, and more capable of taking on the top teams than I have seen in a generation, and the trajectory is positive. Give the man a chance.
Toast
Player Valuation: £80m
Martinez's signings:
2013/14
Joel (£4m) - in the balance but getting better
Alcaraz (free) - poor, but at least there was no cost out-lay
Del (loan) - success
Kone (£6m) - failure overall
Barry (loan) - success
McCarthy (£13m) - success
Lukaku (loan) - success
McGeady (£0.5m) - dreadful but again, low fee, though he was/is on high wages
Traore (loan) - 1 goal in 2 apps
- but no, that was a poor one but it didn't really have an effect either way2014/15
Besic (£4m) - success
Barry (permanent) - success
Galloway (£4m) - success
Atsu (loan) - poor
Eto'o (free) - turned out poor but at the start seemed like a master-stroke up until xmas time.
Lukaku (£28m) - success
Lennon (loan) - success
2015/16
Holgate (£1m) - one for the future but signs look good
Cleverley (free) - success
Del (£4m) - success
Mori (£9.5m) - success
Rodriguez (£1.5m) - up in the air atm
Lennon (£4.5m) - success
Niasse (£13.5m) - hasn't played yet
So, he's made 23 signings that have/will feature in and around the first team, as well as introducing youth players.
Of those 23, 6 have been poor/not worked out - though even then they have had positive impacts at times - e.g. Eto'o vs Krasnodar and Burnley and Kone at the start of this season.
So, perhaps not 80% of his signings, but the majority of them have been good.
Like Moyes before him, one thing that Martinez can't really be criticised for is his work in the transfer market.
Bungle
Player Valuation: £90m
I struggle to see the sudden surge in anti Martinez sentiment, I mean I have understood it at various points in the season, but it seems to be more prevalent now than at any other stage, despite the most recent facts being;
4 Games, 3 Wins, 1 loss, 9 Goals Scored, 1 Conceded, defence generally looking more solid and Howard replaced as number 1.
I think some of you just look for the first opportunity to jump on Martinez despite obvious signs of progression.
4 Games, 3 Wins, 1 loss, 9 Goals Scored, 1 Conceded, defence generally looking more solid and Howard replaced as number 1.
I think some of you just look for the first opportunity to jump on Martinez despite obvious signs of progression.
catcherintherye
Player Valuation: £80m
It is a very interesting point really. This is definitely the crux of the argument and where lots of fans differ. If you look at it in a numerical terms, we spend about half way up, have a wage bill about half way up, so finishing half way up is about par. It would be unfair to sack a manager for being par really. By that basis our aspiration should be to finish top 10 and that is a good season.
On the other hand people will also say football is not just about numbers. Our managers get the advantage of being given time, close to full control of the off field matters, not the same pressure as other managers have and the ability to plan for the long term. Alongside that we have a fruitful youth academy that yields players that don't cost much money and generally are paid less in wages. Just some of the reasons why some of the stats above are too simplistic. Just as for Moyes in his early years his "net spend" figures are simplified by getting 30 million for an academy product, so too are ours by having players such as Barkley free of cost.
Most importantly of all we have a squad that is stronger than most sides around us in wage bill. I don't think it is just rose tinted glasses to say we have a better squad than the likes of West Ham, Stoke etc. When you consider what sides like Chelsea were willing to pay for Stones/Coleman/McCarthy. The international recognition for players such as Jags/Baines while how players such as Lukaku/Deulofeu/Barkley have performed it is hard to say we should just be 10th.
I try to look at other sides squads impartially. City/Arsenal are stronger than us. I think we are close to Spurs/United/Chelsea/Liverpool. For these supporters they understandably say that top 6 should be our aim.
This was much of the debate that dominated the arguments around Moyes. How far should he be given credit for assembling such a talented squad, and how far should he be criticised for not taking it further?
I am on the fence to the above debate, both positions are reasonable and have their strengths and weaknesses. I think that people probably just want to see Martinez showing an ability to adapt. A lot of the frustration is how we lose not always because we lose.
Saturday against West Brom didn't worry me too much. We battered a side who got a goal from a set piece and defended bravely. That defeat doesn't worry me too much, but the defeats to Stoke, Leicester and Swansea were all alarming for different reasons. I know we lost a goal to a set play, but we have been defending them much better recently. We haven't got much credit in the bank after that. A big worry if we don't seem able to use home advantage. It's a years worth of poor form now. It can't all be down to bad luck and referees.
As you rightly point out the league is tight which compounds an already impassioned debate. There may be 10 points separating 6th to 13th come the end of the season. At one end of the scale Martinez would be getting hailed as having done a brilliant job, at the other we would look like we have gone backwards. With such a small difference between the two I think it probably discredits both positions a bit.
I am in the Martinez in camp. I am naturally cautious when getting rid of managers and we do have lots of young players. However as I've always said it's not enough to just stand behind the "we're in transition and with a young side" argument indefinitely. The young players who now have more experience need to start showing more consistency. You need to have a system of checks and balances. If we are inexperienced in one area it needs to be made up for in another. For me that's the question Martinez needs to show he can answer.
Spurs are a very good comparison for us. Poch has shown he can develop a winning formula. Martinez has shown he can develop an exciting team, but in the end we need to be winners too.
silent bob
What a guy.
This was fun when it started. I can see the merits in both sides of the Martinez debate.
However, IMHO, this has turned into something akin to the labour of Sisyphus.
Can we not all just give it a rest??
However, IMHO, this has turned into something akin to the labour of Sisyphus.
Can we not all just give it a rest??
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