Roberto Martinez discussion

[Igrok]

His one-dimensional tactics been exposed by almost every team and hanged out to dry...no need for a nutcracker to crack his nuts, he does it himself by landing squarely on his bottom time after time...
Personally i have seen house league coaches with better tactical pedigree..
If the Board doesn't sack him, The Goodison will...watch it unfolding...

 

[BlueToff]

The best claim I like is how Roberto's first season is somehow better than Pochettino's with Spurs because they haven't got 72 points...yet. Spurs as a minimum will be top 4 and are currently fighting for the title, 2 things we never did even in that first season.

Looking back on that season we could have overtaken Liverpool had we won the Anfield derby. We lost though, and whereas they kicked onto title winning form we floundered around, then won a string of games when there was absolutely zero pressure, then bottled it once we were actually in position to achieve something. That season cannot be compared to what Leicester and Spurs are doing this season going away and winning at City, Leicester beating Liverpool and Spurs, long winning runs, all under the intense pressure of a title run in.

Quite simply a different level of football, the physical and mental aspects combined, that Martinez has never reached in his time at Everton. The Arsenal home game in 13/14 is probably the only game which had positive pressure attached to it (as in we needed to win to achieve something) that we've actually performed in. All of the rest: all of the derbies, Arsenal cup QF, Kiev away, City away, Palace home 13/14, we've choked and not performed. Just nowhere near the mental fortitude that Ranieri and Pochettino have instilled in their sides.

He achieved more in his first season, with relatively the same squad, than Moyes had for the past five years, while at the same time introducing a fantastic style of play.

And again you're completely missing the point. This isn't Poch's first season at Spurs, is it?

 

[yelyah]

Spanish Brendan Rodgers.

 

[Titus Bramble]

What's with the hyperbole? He's clearly not clueless, inept or out of his depth and he doesn't have less tactical nouse than a house league manager.

Why can't people discuss things sensibl... Oh yeah... This is the internet...

 

[riddick]

He achieved more in his first season, with relatively the same squad, than Moyes had for the past five years, while at the same time introducing a fantastic style of play.

And again you're completely missing the point. This isn't Poch's first season at Spurs, is it?

Would almost say you're missing the point as well. How much different is the team now than it was then? Its largely the same team, is it not? Than why are so many fine with us being so much worse?

 

[BlueToff]

Would almost say you're missing the point as well. How much different is the team now than it was then? Its largely the same team, is it not? Than why are so many fine with us being so much worse?

I'm not fine with us being 'much worse'.

I want the results to pick up as much as anyone. But one defeat (our second of 2016, in which so far I think we've looked a better side defensively, in the league) doesn't change my view on RM being the right man for the job.

 

[bluestevon]

I could not agree any less with that. Some of his decisions are genuinely baffling, and leave the majority of fans scratching their heads. Fans aren't booing because they see his logic, they're booing because they believe the decision to be a bad one.

To me the logical changes on saturday would have been to sacrifice a holding player for one of the attacking options on the bench and drop Barkley deeper, and to give ourselves more width by bringing on a winger on the left. Instead we became more narrow, and took off the only consistent threat we'd had to replace him like for like. And that happens regularly, the City game you're talking about was the same. It was absolutely not logical to replace the fastest player in your team with a crab when relying on counter attacks to keep your opponents honest.

Very good post mate, couldn't argue with a word you said really

 

[riddick]

I'm not fine with us being 'much worse'.

I want the results to pick up as much as anyone. But one defeat (our second of 2016, in which so far I think we've looked a better side defensively, in the league) doesn't change my view on RM being the right man for the job.

Im not basing my opinion of Martinez on this one match. Im not surprised we lost to a very well organized defence. This team has had problems trying to figure out how to break down teams that sit back.

What I specifically am not ok with is how the 72 point mark is something that is used to big Martinez up whilst ignoring the fact that over the last 18 months we have barely beaten that mark. We were told last year was a blip because 'blabla Europa league messed us up'. No Europa League this year and where are we? I take issue with being told "we're a cup team now, it doesn't matter if we finish 15th or 5th as long as we go far in a cup" as if league position really DOESN'T mean anything. What players are going to want to join a team that finishes outside the top 10 two years in a row...but wait, they got to a semi in a domestic cup! They MUST be on the rise!

 

[BlueToff]

Im not basing my opinion of Martinez on this one match. Im not surprised we lost to a very well organized defence. This team has had problems trying to figure out how to break down teams that sit back.

What I specifically am not ok with is how the 72 point mark is something that is used to big Martinez up whilst ignoring the fact that over the last 18 months we have barely beaten that mark. We were told last year was a blip because 'blabla Europa league messed us up'. No Europa League this year and where are we? I take issue with being told "we're a cup team now, it doesn't matter if we finish 15th or 5th as long as we go far in a cup" as if league position really DOESN'T mean anything. What players are going to want to join a team that finishes outside the top 10 two years in a row...but wait, they got to a semi in a domestic cup! They MUST be on the rise!

Personally, I haven't been saying any of those things.

My view point is that I think Martinez is building something here and overall I like what I see and want it to continue, and hopefully the results can follow suit.

 

[the sniderman]

I think Martinez has come along a few years too late. Back before the TV deal brought social mobility to the Premier League, when the crap teams were properly crap, he probably could have achieved similar to results to Moyes on the back of an abstract philosophy - even if it doesn't really amount to much more than never going long from the back.

Now, though, the playing field has been levelled, and every game is an actual contest, requiring the sort of hands on management that Martinez, with his 'Appy 'Arry levels of tactical neglect, isn't capable of providing.

He won't adapt, and if he was working at a club with any semblance of ambition he wouldn't survive.

Also, please stop talking up 72 points as being tantamount to finishing fourth. By that logic, Brendan Rodgers is an uncrowned Premier League champion.

social mobility??
abstract philosophy??
semblance of ambition??
tantamount??

boy you wanna cough that theosaurus back up right before i web you in the nose for being a prize chump??

 

[riddick]

Personally, I haven't been saying any of those things.

My view point is that I think Martinez is building something here and overall I like what I see and want it to continue, and hopefully the results can follow suit.

I wasn't saying that was you i was quoting.

And I think even the most frustrated person can say the football we play is very attractive and fun to watch. The problem is that it's not getting results. This isnt a one off for me against West Brom. Losses happen, move on. My take on Martinez is either he is unable or unwilling to fix inherent problems with his 'system'. Either one of those means, to me, he shouldn't be the manager of this club. Look at Swansea. He laid a significant foundation which others modified and became a solid PL team. My feeling is that the club could do much better with someone else working on the foundation he has laid.

 

[Carlito]

social mobility??
abstract philosophy??
semblance of ambition??
tantamount??

boy you wanna cough that theosaurus back up right before i web you in the nose for being a prize chump??

I thought heroes were supposed to protect the nerds from persecution.

 

[Saint Domingo]

He achieved more in his first season, with relatively the same squad, than Moyes had for the past five years, while at the same time introducing a fantastic style of play.

And again you're completely missing the point. This isn't Poch's first season at Spurs, is it?

You're missing the point with these stupid games. You just go round the houses comparing Martinez to what you want but not what you don't want them contradicting it all in your very next post, then bringing Moyes in then chastising posters telling them to leave Moyes out. It's like trying to rope the wind with some of you lot.

Some people have been decrying (ridiculously) the performance of Ranieri and Pochettino this season somehow making out that Roberto's first season was better. I've argued otherwise. If you want to compare Martinez's second season with Pochettino's second season in happy to. Want to compare his first with Ranieri's first I'm happy to.

If you really are adamant to bring Moyes in to this, where did he finish at the end of his third season with a lesser squad and selling his best player?

 

[the sniderman]

I thought heroes were supposed to protect the nerds from persecution.

then i apologize carlito. but i am here to protect this city from the miserable punks going on and on and causing a divide. i will not tolerate this no more.

 

[BlueToff]

I wasn't saying that was you i was quoting.

And I think even the most frustrated person can say the football we play is very attractive and fun to watch. The problem is that it's not getting results. This isnt a one off for me against West Brom. Losses happen, move on. My take on Martinez is either he is unable or unwilling to fix inherent problems with his 'system'. Either one of those means, to me, he shouldn't be the manager of this club. Look at Swansea. He laid a significant foundation which others modified and became a solid PL team. My feeling is that the club could do much better with someone else working on the foundation he has laid.

And I wasn't saying you had, I was just saying that it wasn't the point I was making/trying to make.

I know the WBA wasn't a one-off in that it is not the first game we've lost this season, obviously. But he has obviously also tried to fix the issues. He has finally seen the light with Joel (hopefully), and since the turn of the year we have looked a lot more solid.

We lost the other day because McCarthy switched off at a corner and our attacking players couldn't finish the chances they created. To me, neither of those things are down to the manager or flaws in his style (of which there can be many at times), but the players on the pitch.