Roberto Martinez discussion

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Allezfan said:
I think it's a pushback for being too patient with moyes, tbh.

Moyes was an utter failiure and as that's becoming more and more clear the fact we gave him one of the best wages in europe and 11 years is looking increasingly stupid.

Hence the desire to not make the same mistakes again with martinez.
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Think Moyes got more time though down to his finishes in the league...
mkrudden said:
Fair enough. As to:

"Knife to a gun fight"
"Just wanted to get out of there alive"
"Get to 40 points then evaluate"
Etc etc.

I was a big Moyes fan btw. Was gutted when he left.
So because Moyes promoted pessimism and lowered your expectations, one 4th in 11 years was a fair deal?

Just doesn't seem right to me. Your criticising RM it seems for making you believe we should aspire to more
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Am criticising Martinez for his shortcomings as a manager and in 9 years failing to see the gap in his skill set. Nothing more nothing less. Like the man, but i slowly find myself finding it really difficult to listen to him.

One 4th place finish wasn't a fair deal - we should have pushed on after that we all seen it yet we never. The squad we have in comparison to that season is miles apart - that in itself is what higher expectation. Regardless of what RM says.
 

mkrudden said:
That's a fair explanation.

Question to you:

If his first season is a representation of our team on a regular consistent basis from August 2018, is it worth waiting for?
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Absoloutely. And if Martinez can convince us that that will happen then he deserves time. But two years of not getting that vs one year of that kind of football and you begin to wonder whether he's capable of recapturing that form.

Everybody in this thread wants the best for the football club. The question is simply is are we more likely to win trophies with this manager or another one.

If you'd asked me that question in august 2014, I would have said "no brainer, we're more likely to with martinez", august 2015 I would have been a bit more hesitant but still give you the same answer.

Now? I'm torn. What I want to happen is for us to go on a real run over the next few months, to finally look like the team we've been threatening to be so I can be confident in the manager again. But if that doesn't happen then I would think it natural to start seriously considering if we need to make a change to get the most out of our resources.
 
willo30 said:
What's Lukaku & Barkley got to do with anything I've said?

You in a previous post had stated he would only get until the end of next season anyway by your standards, I was merely pointing out I would prefer to see some sort of improvement before making that judgement.

As for the stats, when none of us can predict what's going to happen a pointer to how the last 6 months has panned out won't be far off the mark.

One last thing that will definitely want me get rid id if he suddenly changes the style and gets us some wins. He did this last season and he did it every season at Wigan. He soon reverts to type the following season convinced that this possession type style he believes in will work. This is the same style that was well and truly put to bed once and for all by Holland in the 2014 world cup when Spain used to play it.
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Barkley and Lukaku were terrible last season based on their ability. Last summer you retained faith that in the coming season they'd improve based on telling signs - they are young, prone to inconsistency. So why are you using last season to depict what will happen next season? We can't use this season because we are half way through.

Simpler example because players vs teams isn't the greatest, I concede.

Leicester at the half way point last year were resigned to relegation. Could you use your same logic to tell me how they are 1st now?
 
mkrudden said:
I'm not being an ass but you didn't answer the question mate?
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It wasn't directed at me.

I was merely lending balance to the argument that his first season could just as easy be the fluke.

I would happily have that season under Martinez every season while he developed the squad, therefor giving us a platform to push on up. The fact is, we aren't though.
 
mkrudden said:
"The best way to work it out is using the stats".

I disagree on so many levels.

Did you write off Lukaku and Barkley at the end of last season when using stats to assess their past and predict their future performances? Of course you didn't. Because that would be a bit bizarre.

RM isn't sitting on a squad of seasoned professionals in their prime. He isn't sitting on a bucket load of cash either.

He's therefore deserving of the time and patience you chaps aren't awarding him.

My biggest criticism of the "plotters" as they are affectionately called, is their need for success NOW. We haven't had success of any degree since 2004. Before that 1995.

Why now? Why the rush? Yes the coveted 7th placed trophy is not a guarantee anymore in the short term, but it's hardly a representation of success in any event.

Speculate to accumulate. We are putting in a plan now that could see us punching in the top 4 places permanently. Surely that's worth waiting longer than 30 months to materialise?
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You're more sensible than needing to come out with that waffle. Do you think all these anti Martinez threads would be SO many pages deep if we were 6th or higher or even if we had traded a few draws for a few wins?

I don't, please don't be fooled into believing the tripe spouted that, because we are not currently in the top 4 AND a cup final 'The Plotters' want him out.

I think people have been consistent in say that the form, in terms of games won to games played Ratio (with this squad) isn't currently good enough.

That's before I even get restarted on the angle of us not seeing this squad next season.
 

Allezfan said:
Absoloutely. And if Martinez can convince us that that will happen then he deserves time. But two years of not getting that vs on year of that kind of football and you begin to wonder whether he's capable of recapturing that form.

Everybody in this thread wants the best for the football club. The question is simply is are we more likely to win trophies with this manager or another one.

If you'd asked me that question in august 2014, I would have said "no brainer, we're more likely to with martinez", august 2015 I would have been a bit more hesitant but still give you the same answer.

Now? I'm torn. What I want to happen is for us to go on a real run over the next few months, to finally look like the team we've been threatening to be so I can be confident in the manager again. But if that doesn't happen then I would think it natural to start seriously considering if we need to make a change to get the most out of our resources.
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You're being very reasonable and for all the banter in here we all appreciate that we want the same thing.

I don't blame you for being torn. I'd just ask you to persevere because, whilst clouded by the results, there are shoots of real recovery as a football club. It's infuriating to be doing it the long way round when for 11 years we got comfort in knowing 7th was a shoe in. I get that. But just look at the players we've got. Look at how two of them have shown a single season of difficulty can be the absolute makings of them - Ross and Rom.
Imagine when Stones comes through his testing season. Imagine when Funes Mori improves. Deulofeu becomes more consistent.

There is clear evidence that we are on the right path. Youve just got to give up 7th for last season and perhaps this season too.
 
Sorr
chazzle_dazzle said:
It wasn't directed at me.

I was merely lending balance to the argument that his first season could just as easy be the fluke.

I would happily have that season under Martinez every season while he developed the squad, therefor giving us a platform to push on up. The fact is, we aren't though.
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Sorry mate, bear with me...I'm having multiple debates here.
 

ianefc said:
You're more sensible than needing to come out with that waffle. Do you think all these anti Martinez threads would be SO many pages deep if we were 6th or higher or even if we had traded a few draws for a few wins?

I don't, please don't be fooled into believing the tripe spouted that, because we are not currently in the top 4 AND a cup final 'The Plotters' want him out.

I think people have been consistent in say that the form, in terms of games won to games played Ratio (with this squad) isn't currently good enough.

That's before I even get restarted on the angle of us not seeing this squad next season.
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But your blinded to all else but our points tally and our wins ratio.

Short term thinking that's fine. The plan I'd absolutely one of a long-term basis.
 
mkrudden said:
Barkley and Lukaku were terrible last season based on their ability. Last summer you retained faith that in the coming season they'd improve based on telling signs - they are young, prone to inconsistency. So why are you using last season to depict what will happen next season? We can't use this season because we are half way through.

Simpler example because players vs teams isn't the greatest, I concede.

Leicester at the half way point last year were resigned to relegation. Could you use your same logic to tell me how they are 1st now?
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I'm getting confused now. The stats I am on about are this seasons as it's unfair to go on last years. The only stat I did mention from last season was points total just to show that there may be no improvement this season.

As for Leicester they are top because they have a stat of over 2 points a game at the moment. If they keep it up they could win the league with the lowest total in a long time. We have got 1.25 per game and are were we deserve to be.

With over half the season gone now I don't think it's unfair to use this seasons stats as a benchmark to how it will pan out. You will get the odd teams that go on a run win and lose but that's it.
 

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