Roberto Martinez discussion

[thebluenosebolt]

I am still angry that in August I was thinking about champions league, November Europa.....February 40 points and safety.
All Bob's fault Imo.
Desperate for a win tonight or I'm not sure I could bare to watch us again...my nails are gone as it is.

 

[mkrudden]

Not complicated. What is your opinion that we should give him until the end of next season based on?

Now now, don't be rude good sir.

To answer your now clarified question:

I believe the squad he's assembled requires coaching, patience, perspective and understanding.

The current manager, as proven by the improvements we can see to Lukaku and Barkley, is the best man for such a job.

He's also a dab hand in the transfer market. Therefore if we lose anyone I believe he will I invest the money well.

 

[mkrudden]

Even if he was to stink the place out and struggle to 40 points for the season?

He could also go on a superb run and win every game but highly unlikely.

Best way to work it out is to go on the seasons stats. We are getting 1.25 points per game which at the end of the season would see us get 48 points. Back to back lower than 50 points in a season for the first time since Walter.

It's funny how some are convinced that all will come good even after 4 seasons when the decent managers like Pochettino can clearly do it a lot quicker.

"The best way to work it out is using the stats".

I disagree on so many levels.

Did you write off Lukaku and Barkley at the end of last season when using stats to assess their past and predict their future performances? Of course you didn't. Because that would be a bit bizarre.

RM isn't sitting on a squad of seasoned professionals in their prime. He isn't sitting on a bucket load of cash either.

He's therefore deserving of the time and patience you chaps aren't awarding him.

My biggest criticism of the "plotters" as they are affectionately called, is their need for success NOW. We haven't had success of any degree since 2004. Before that 1995.

Why now? Why the rush? Yes the coveted 7th placed trophy is not a guarantee anymore in the short term, but it's hardly a representation of success in any event.

Speculate to accumulate. We are putting in a plan now that could see us punching in the top 4 places permanently. Surely that's worth waiting longer than 30 months to materialise?

 

[Allezfan]

Why now? Why the rush? Yes the coveted 7th placed trophy is not a guarantee anymore in the short term, but it's hardly a representation of success in any event.

Speculate to accumulate. We are putting in a plan now that could see us punching in the top 4 places permanently. Surely that's worth waiting longer than 30 months to materialise?

The argument has always been that you have to score when you're on top.

I personally think it's a failiure that arteta, cahill etc left here without winning a trophy and I don't want baines, barkley and lukaku to also leave without winning a trophy.

When you have a squad capable of competing, you have to do something with it, because it won't last forever.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

"The best way to work it out is using the stats".

I disagree on so many levels.

Did you write off Lukaku and Barkley at the end of last season when using stats to assess their past and predict their future performances? Of course you didn't. Because that would be a bit bizarre.

RM isn't sitting on a squad of seasoned professionals in their prime. He isn't sitting on a bucket load of cash either.

He's therefore deserving of the time and patience you chaps aren't awarding him.

My biggest criticism of the "plotters" as they are affectionately called, is their need for success NOW. We haven't had success of any degree since 2004. Before that 1995.

Why now? Why the rush? Yes the coveted 7th placed trophy is not a guarantee anymore in the short term, but it's hardly a representation of success in any event.

Speculate to accumulate. We are putting in a plan now that could see us punching in the top 4 places permanently. Surely that's worth waiting longer than 30 months to materialise?

Not a representation of success in the slightest - it is however a sign that we aren't losing ground, however bottom half finishes (if that was to happen this season) are a sign of moving backwards.

 

[mkrudden]

The argument has always been that you have to score when you're on top.

I personally think it's a failiure that arteta, cahill etc left here without winning a trophy and I don't want baines, barkley and lukaku to also leave without winning a trophy.

When you have a squad capable of competing, you have to do something with it, because it won't last forever.

But that team won nothing because, with the greatest respect in the world to them, they weren't good enough to.

I think we can all agree that this team has the potential to be a far better side made up of far better players in a far better system. A system that will mean we are in control. If we play well, we will win more often than not. I liked the previous regime, but it was built ok safety first, being solid, nicking games. Of course there was the odd exception when we were brilliant, and Moyes deserves huge credit for that.

It still doesn't explain why we gave so much patience to the Moyes project, based on gradual improvement due to the finances, yet we believe Martinez is failing for not producing more with his fledglings in 30months and 6 transfer Windows.

 

[mkrudden]

Not a representation of success in the slightest - it is however a sign that we aren't losing ground, however bottom half finishes (if that was to happen this season) are a sign of moving backwards.

And if we finish 10th is it a sign of improvement?

 

[Allezfan]

But that team won nothing because, with the greatest respect in the world to them, they weren't good enough to.

I think we can all agree that this team has the potential to be a far better side made up of far better players in a far better system. A system that will mean we are in control. If we play well, we will win more often than not. I liked the previous regime, but it was built ok safety first, being solid, nicking games. Of course there was the odd exception when we were brilliant, and Moyes deserves huge credit for that.

It still doesn't explain why we gave so much patience to the Moyes project, based on gradual improvement due to the finances, yet we believe Martinez is failing for not producing more with his fledglings in 30months and 6 transfer Windows.

I think it's a pushback for being too patient with moyes, tbh.

Moyes was an utter failiure and as that's becoming more and more clear the fact we gave him one of the best wages in europe and 11 years is looking increasingly stupid.

Hence the desire to not make the same mistakes again with martinez.

 

[mkrudden]

I think it's a pushback for being too patient with moyes, tbh.

Moyes was an utter failiure and as that's becoming more and more clear the fact we gave him one of the best wages in europe and 11 years is looking increasingly stupid.

Hence the desire to not make the same mistakes again with martinez.

That's a fair explanation.

Question to you:

If his first season is a representation of our team on a regular consistent basis from August 2018, is it worth waiting for?

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

And if we finish 10th is it a sign of improvement?

Good question - not really no, but in comparison to last season yes.

Moyes got longer then he should have because of the finishes in the Prem, all we hear now is "building something special", "verge of something phenomenal" there is only so long people can listen to that while not seeing it backed up. Bottom half/Midtable finishes aren't "something special".

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

That's a fair explanation.

Question to you:

If his first season is a representation of our team on a regular consistent basis from August 2018, is it worth waiting for?

That is a massive IF. what IF that season was the fluke and not last, and where we are now is where Martinez regularly has us?

 

[Jreverton1]

That is a massive IF. what IF that season was the fluke and not last, and where we are now is where Martinez regularly has us?

I agree, surely his first season was the fluke otherwise we would be challenging top 4 now.

 

[mkrudden]

Good question - not really no, but in comparison to last season yes.

Moyes got longer then he should have because of the finishes in the Prem, all we hear now is "building something special", "verge of something phenomenal" there is only so long people can listen to that while not seeing it backed up. Bottom half/Midtable finishes aren't "something special".

Fair enough. As to:

"Knife to a gun fight"
"Just wanted to get out of there alive"
"Get to 40 points then evaluate"
Etc etc.

I was a big Moyes fan btw. Was gutted when he left.
So because Moyes promoted pessimism and lowered your expectations, one 4th in 11 years was a fair deal?

Just doesn't seem right to me. Your criticising RM it seems for making you believe we should aspire to more

 

[mkrudden]

That is a massive IF. what IF that season was the fluke and not last, and where we are now is where Martinez regularly has us?

I'm not being an ass but you didn't answer the question mate?

 

[willo30]

"The best way to work it out is using the stats".

I disagree on so many levels.

Did you write off Lukaku and Barkley at the end of last season when using stats to assess their past and predict their future performances? Of course you didn't. Because that would be a bit bizarre.

RM isn't sitting on a squad of seasoned professionals in their prime. He isn't sitting on a bucket load of cash either.

He's therefore deserving of the time and patience you chaps aren't awarding him.

My biggest criticism of the "plotters" as they are affectionately called, is their need for success NOW. We haven't had success of any degree since 2004. Before that 1995.

Why now? Why the rush? Yes the coveted 7th placed trophy is not a guarantee anymore in the short term, but it's hardly a representation of success in any event.

Speculate to accumulate. We are putting in a plan now that could see us punching in the top 4 places permanently. Surely that's worth waiting longer than 30 months to materialise?

What's Lukaku & Barkley got to do with anything I've said?

You in a previous post had stated he would only get until the end of next season anyway by your standards, I was merely pointing out I would prefer to see some sort of improvement before making that judgement.

As for the stats, when none of us can predict what's going to happen a pointer to how the last 6 months has panned out won't be far off the mark.

One last thing that will definitely want me get rid id if he suddenly changes the style and gets us some wins. He did this last season and he did it every season at Wigan. He soon reverts to type the following season convinced that this possession type style he believes in will work. This is the same style that was well and truly put to bed once and for all by Holland in the 2014 world cup when Spain used to play it.