Roberto Martinez discussion

[ianefc]

You list Ferguson's pre United achievements Ian but ignore Martinez's achievements such as the FA Cup wins or rebuilding of Swansea, instead focussing on negatives only.

I thought this was supposed to be a be a balanced discussion.

First things first their have been plenty of managers who got things such as back to back promotions in the lower leagues (lambert at Norwich for example)...so not gonna credit that too much.. But you're right TBF I don't mention it. The other is the FA cup....again an achievement of note TBF. But it's not comparable to what Ferguson did with Aberdeen....and although we'd do anything to win it, it was only 6 games in the same season he took Wigan down a feat not even Steve Bruce or Paul Jewell managed, doesn't mean he's gonna do a good job here. Didn't McLaren keep Boro up win the LC and get to EL final in one season, then a few years later win Dutch league with Twente, would you want him on that pretence?
I'm sure someone will gag that I would.

 

[ianefc]

Not watched this yet, usually a decent watch.

 

[By god I'm blue]

He would get 5 years if people could see green shoots of recovery. There was none for Moyes, he was a disaster, there's non for LVG either hence why they'll both get chased.

There is here though, there's a lot of the job that Martinez is doing right and even though he's clearly making mistakes on the pitch they're are things he can iron out and he's earned the right to try and do so by all the good he's done up to now.

You say none of these modern managers get time and arguably every single one of these clubs who do keep changing are under performing.

The team currently top of the league are the only one with any stability.

I have highlighted the points about Martinez that are very questionable.

Chelsea won league titles and a CL whilst changing managers constantly! So that theory is a bit flawed. Yes Arsenal are top of the league, but it was only 5 minutes ago they were calling for their managers head, but 2 x FA cup wins have possible saved him his job.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

What I have to laugh at is, Martinez has been here, what, 2 and a half years, he's finished 5th, 11th, given us our highest ever prem points total, got us to a cup semi, playing some of the best footy we've seen for a long time, but some aren't willing to give him time.

 

[harry]

I hope we beat spurs, have a couple of days break.

 

[Jonahjones]

Hold on though, a source tells you the very dramatic news that 'a director' has had 'a word' with Martinez about his game management...and you dont think to ask which one of these men has interfered in the football side of the club?

I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe.

I think the name of this 'director' is absent from the proceedings because anyone viewing it will burst out laughing trying to picture a scene where it happens.

I mean, come on mate FFS...one of these idiots standing there telling a PL coach who's won a trophy and taken Everton to their best ever PL points total standing in front of him telling him where he's going wrong and what they'd do in the same circumstances?

Pfffft!

Where did I say an individual Director?

Dave, I have no issue with whether you believe me or not. That is up to you. (I fail to see how revealing a source makes it any more or less true).

I do feel that you appear to encourage others not to believe things. On what basis? The balance of probabilities?

People can make up their own minds.

 

[Toffeelover]

Don't worry I am getting there just need a few more seasons to work it out.

 

[boris]

First things first their have been plenty of managers who got things such as back to back promotions in the lower leagues (lambert at Norwich for example)...so not gonna credit that too much.. But you're right TBF I don't mention it. The other is the FA cup....again an achievement of note TBF. But it's not comparable to what Ferguson did with Aberdeen....and although we'd do anything to win it, it was only 6 games in the same season he took Wigan down a feat not even Steve Bruce or Paul Jewell managed, doesn't mean he's gonna do a good job here. Didn't McLaren keep Boro up win the LC and get to EL final in one season, then a few years later win Dutch league with Twente, would you want him on that pretence?
I'm sure someone will gag that I would.

I wouldn't want McClaren but there would have ben a time that i would of had him and the fact that he got the biggest job in England shows how knee jerk big decisions can be made based on one good or bad performance / job.

There's lots of examples of this everywhere, Moyes being one.

For me this argument is going round in circles and there isn't going to be a winner until Martinez's stay is over which won't be any time soon.

I fully understand those who want him out. We are massively under performing on the pitch but I still believe he needs time as he has shown lots of positives. His ability in the transfer market, obviously our attacking football, he seems to be able to attract players I don't believe other managers could nor our club now a days sadly. His man management is another positive for me although maybe not for others (people seem to want to play for him and I include even players like Mirallas and Naismith in that who aren't flavour of the month). I'm also very happy with how he integrates the youth set up and gives them a clear path to the first team. Finally, I like his plan to move us on, some want tight defences, fighting football or signing older established players on big contracts like Allardyce did but he seems to be trying to build our club on the youth set up, backing his judgement with what money he has on big money star players who strengthen our first team and padding the squad out with frees or loans.

The positives for me far out weigh the negatives although the defensive issue is clearly a worry as he had the same issues before he got here. I'm not too concerned on the loyalty to Howard. I expect he'll to be bombed very, very soon either by a new GK in January or Robles.

 

[Toffeelover]

The positives for me far out weigh the negatives although the defensive issue is clearly a worry as he had the same issues before he got here.

I think this is the point Boris, you make it clear yourself. The defensive issues were there right back in his Wigan days and it appears he is no where nearer sorting them out even with dare I say a better calibre of player.

So how long should he have? Counting the Wigan seasons that means he has had 6.5 seasons.

 

[riddick]

I wouldn't be violently against it as analysis.

It's just good to see the baby isn't thrown out with the bathwater.

Ok, this is a good start. Can you also agree that Howard is a complete liability at the back and Martinez's stubborn choice of keeping him in goal is also a problem?

Martinez had this summer to sort it out and he did not. If the money was there for Yarmolenko and not used, it could easily have been used to buy a competent keeper, no?

 

[harry]

Ok, this is a good start. Can you also agree that Howard is a complete liability at the back and Martinez's stubborn choice of keeping him in goal is also a problem?

Martinez had this summer to sort it out and he did not. If the money was there for Yarmolenko and not used, it could easily have been used to buy a competent keeper, no?

To be fair davek has said nunerous times that howard is a problem and martinez is wrong to stick with him.

 

[boris]

I think this is the point Boris, you make it clear yourself. The defensive issues were there right back in his Wigan days and it appears he is no where nearer sorting them out even with dare I say a better calibre of player.

So how long should he have? Counting the Wigan seasons that means he has had 6.5 seasons.

I couldn't put a time frame on it, I won't sit here and say I'll give him to the end of the season etc.

When I feel were standing still then I expect that'll be the time but I dont think we are. He's clearly focused on our attacking play and I think going forward dismantling teams were exceptional and getting better and better but we've now reached a point were we must address the defence and I expect him to do so.

For what it's worth I think we've been here before last year and he did sort out the defence and make us very tight but it was a short term fix that was too defensive and horrible to watch but he did do it. He's got to find a long term balance now.

I also still think we're a year or so away from saying it's his squad. It's all well and good saying get rid of Naismith, Osman, Howard, Hibbert etc but the alternatives that you want must be available at the right price and for me that all takes time. I'd rather he took his time and signed the right players then me do with the wrong players who aren't exactly what he wants because they are available.

 

[Toffeelover]

Boris, you talk of a year or so from saying it is his squad. For that say bye to Coleman, Jags, Stones, Baines, TH, Oveido, Gibson, Pienaar, Osman, Nais, Mirallas, Barkley, Just a sample, none of these were his players!

 

[Alanbileysfeathercut]

I wouldn't want McClaren but there would have ben a time that i would of had him and the fact that he got the biggest job in England shows how knee jerk big decisions can be made based on one good or bad performance / job.

There's lots of examples of this everywhere, Moyes being one.

For me this argument is going round in circles and there isn't going to be a winner until Martinez's stay is over which won't be any time soon.

I fully understand those who want him out. We are massively under performing on the pitch but I still believe he needs time as he has shown lots of positives. His ability in the transfer market, obviously our attacking football, he seems to be able to attract players I don't believe other managers could nor our club now a days sadly. His man management is another positive for me although maybe not for others (people seem to want to play for him and I include even players like Mirallas and Naismith in that who aren't flavour of the month). I'm also very happy with how he integrates the youth set up and gives them a clear path to the first team. Finally, I like his plan to move us on, some want tight defences, fighting football or signing older established players on big contracts like Allardyce did but he seems to be trying to build our club on the youth set up, backing his judgement with what money he has on big money star players who strengthen our first team and padding the squad out with frees or loans.

The positives for me far out weigh the negatives although the defensive issue is clearly a worry as he had the same issues before he got here. I'm not too concerned on the loyalty to Howard. I expect he'll to be bombed very, very soon either by a new GK in January or Robles.

How much time,that's the burning question.If he turns it round, great it was worth the wait.I believe the current team has great potential,which a better manager would exploit,who I haven't a Scooby.

 

[hullefc]

If it is that easy, I wonder why Moyes, Pulis and Alladyce haven't won the league yet? Nice sound bite though.

After every season there is a time to reflect, even for those that have won bucket loads of trophies. Clubs will review mid season or even before if they are down the bottom and struggling. Martinez should be treated no differently than any other past Everton manager. At this stage of the season it is half way through as is his contract. IMO we are in a winnable 2 legged semi final against City then either Stoke or Liverpool in the final to win our first trophy since 1995. Our club has lumbered on for 20 years without a trophy. What was happening before wasn't working.

The premier league has become much more difficult to win games and it is a disservice to other clubs players, fans and mangers to churlish to say 'but they are Stoke, Palace, Watford, Leicester etc.' and we should be above them. It is equally nonsensical to say that this is the 'worst premier league ever'. Why is it the worst? Because the usual suspects are not dominating the top 5 or 6 places. I suppose the old first divion was a lot of cack when 6 or 7 different teams won it in 10 years. Or I suppose the premier league from the offset has been crap because the dominant force before, Liverpool, have not won it.

There is a sea change going on. No team fears playing anyone any more. Which teams are going to the Emirates, OT, Anfield, Stamford Bridge, the Etihad or White Hart Lane or Goodison and quaking in their boots. With the exception of Villa and probably Sunderland most teams are having a right go.

Why shouldn't Palace turn up at Anfield and Stamford Bridge and turn them over? Why shouldn't West ham go to Anfield and Arsenal and turn them over? Why shouldn't Newcastle go to WHL and get a result? Why shouldn't Stoke come to Goodison and win? Where is it written that certain teams, including us, have the god given right to win a football game. Why shouldn't Bournemouth win at Stamford Bridge and beat Manu at home?

Most teams are playing on the counter. There are hardly any great individual defenders in the premier league. There are some solid ones and that is why teams can score. Even the 'defensive' managers like Pulis and Allardyce are finding it difficult to organise a defence. Man City have kept 4 clean sheets in all competitions since the end of August. And they are still being tipped as potential champions. No on so called 'expert' has said 'they will need to tighten up in defence in they are to win the title'.

Without stating the bleeding obvious our defensive side is a problem at the moment. The players want it addressed and have made it known to Martinez without resorting to tittle tattle in the media. They want to improve as they wanted to improve offensively. The players pushing the manager and coaches all the way and questioning what they are doing and why, and seeing if it works on the pitch or making it work. Is the best guarantee that we can/will turn things around defensively. As it is them that are on the pitch and have to implement any tactics/formation/shape/ break down positions and movements.

People can pontificate all they want -me included by the way- about Martinez can do it because he did it with the attack. Or others can pontificate that he couldn't do it at Wigan so he can't do it here.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty take your pick. What I see is something being built that may turn into something special. I'll stress may, as I don't have a crystal ball and know the future. I'll work on the basis that the players and Martinez 'solved' the attacking side of our game and have faith in the players and managers to follow a similar route with the defensive side of our game. I take notice of what Martinez did or didn't do at Wigan with his teams tactics and set up but I'm not going to turn it into a stick to beat him with.

There will obviously be more written on the subject by us Evertonians some far more insightful than I can write. Some will just seem like a rant - nothing wrong with a good old rant. We all have them now and then. What is illuminating is the degree with which football is discussed. God that reminds me of that scene in the Golden Vision. When they were in a strip joint and there was one that only wanted to talk football while the other watched the entertainment.

I look forward to the Spurs game as I think it will be a right good game of football. By heck January is a big month. A Capital One cup final appearance beckons. I booked my hotel at Wembley back in early September and have the train tickets. The only thing I will need is a ticket.