Roberto Martinez discussion

[ianefc]

Ian......I ain't looking to engage with you in "argument".

I find your position ludicrous in the extreme and you appear to be the kind of chap who will never, ever acknowledge the other party might have made a sensible point if it runs counter you to own preconceived notions.

So I would never waste my time trying to debate with you.

All's I do is engage in a bit of banter with you.....have a bit of fun with you.

Your meltdown the night of the 1-1 "defeat" at West Ham was epic

So have a Happy New Year, pal......though I hope Everton spoil it for you on Sunday with a comprehensive victory over Spurs

With regards the 2nd paragraph would you say there is no one in the opposite side of the fence who also will not acknowledge things like our form?

Or am I the only one who is firmly placed on one side and will not give a 2nd thought to the possibilities of budging from my point?

The way you follow Davek from thread to thread liking his stuff (so I assume you agree with him) instantly then you pull me on this make you look a hypocrite.

 

[maddison]

I think we have moved forward, sure. From a value perspective, we could be looking at 80 million for Stones and Lukaku, probably more. That's the quality of player that's been developed under Martinez. It's been a disappointing run of results to be sure, it does have the whiff of a missed opportunity, but I'm willing to wait until the end of the season to take stock.

So we should still be a top 8 team? We've either progressed, are in transition, or have gone backwards.

I personally think we're still in transition, with some positive signs and also some very worrying concerns too. It's a long season and I'm all for getting behind the manager in the hopes he will turn things around. I'm not willing to move the goal posts though and accept dropping out of the top 8 as being progress. I can possibly accept the summer transfer window, in the slim hopes we don't lose any key personnel, as time for Martinez to address our weaknesses. If we're in e same boat next season then he will need to go. Three seasons outside of the top 8 would be failure and a big step backwards. I'd be tempted to say consistently finishing outside of the top six is a failure.

As you correctly state, other clubs have more resources due to the TV money, by the same token so do we. We could have outbid and brought either Shaqiri or Payet to the club, out interest in Yarmolenko showed that.

 

[ianefc]

Christ, I'm off to bed. I can't handle being quoted by more than 2 people at a time.

Jesus welcome to my world on 'FUMENIGHT'

Night pal.

 

[Lanolin]

Unless Distin, Howard, Osman, and a few others started to show their age.

Of course that could be one factor. Unless our competitors have found a modified delorean, however, I would have thought it would be an issue faced all teams. A couple of years ago Spurs were packed with the likes of Keane, Defoe, Dawson, Dempsey and gallas. Stoke were reliant on crouch, delap, Huth and etherington. The changes to the league are relative, we have not been handicapped in the slightest.

 

[ianefc]

Of course that could be one factor. Unless our competitors have found a modified delorean, however, I would have thought it would be an issue faced all teams. A couple of years ago Spurs were packed with the likes of Keane, Defoe, Dawson, Dempsey and gallas. Stoke were reliant on crouch, delap, Huth and etherington. The changes to the league are relative, we have not been handicapped in the slightest.

Definitely should have put

*drops mic

At the end of that.

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

There is nowt wrong with the form, Venture.

It is the results.

We are playing quite brilliantly most the time.

Man. United were the opposite earlier in the season........they were in dreadful form but kept ekeing out victories somehow or other.

Then the results caught up with the form and they have gone into tailspin.

That is what tends to happen.....and I can see our results catching up with our form especially when our first choice, experienced defenders are back in full harness.

I think we are playing great stuff going forward but I guess that's just where the language trips me up. I consider Howard's performances and our set piece frailties as part of our form so I guess we're doing ok all combined but I think better than ok is warranted.

 

[USABlue]

So we should still be a top 8 team? We've either progressed, are in transition, or have gone backwards.

I personally think we're still in transition, with some positive signs and also some very worrying concerns too. It's a long season and I'm all for getting behind the manager in the hopes he will turn things around. I'm not willing to move the goal posts though and accept dropping out of the top 8 as being progress. I can possibly accept the summer transfer window, in the slim hopes we don't lose any key personnel, as time for Martinez to address our weaknesses. If we're in e same boat next season then he will need to go. Three seasons outside of the top 8 would be failure and a big step backwards. I'd be tempted to say consistently finishing outside of the top six is a failure.

As you correctly state, other clubs have more resources due to the TV money, by the same token so do we. We could have outbid and brought either Shaqiri or Payet to the club, out interest in Yarmolenko showed that.

The thing with Shaqiri and Payet is wages I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Shaqiri and Payet getting 100k a week? While baines is our highest at 80-90k?

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

Thanks god Lukaku didn't get injured, although there are bigger issues to be solved one of the biggest shouts this summer was for a secondary striker to be purchased. We'd be staring down the barrel without Lukaku.

Honestly mate if the first part of this post was true I reckon you could shave 350 pages off of this thread. The amount of Goading and re creating posts to fit agendas that goes on, in the back of yet more poor results is something that inspires so many posts.

The last thing any right minded Evertonian wants to hear after our team has thrown away yet more points, after performing vastly superior in the 1st half compared to the 2nd is 'yeah but the football was scintillating'

I think the first part is true but the general consensus from those opposing you is that it will pick up not that it's ok as it has been going but I see now that the relative language of form precludes an agreement on things not being good enough.

 

[Khalekan]

Spot on this, Howard was amazing, but in 83 we didn't know this yet, just like United fans didn't know at first how good Sir Alex was going to be, Martinez on the other hand we know all we need to know about him now, one flucky 5th and a lucky cup doesn't hide the reality which is plain to see.

carlin.

Howard took the job here in the summer of 1981.

In the January or February of 1984 they were calling for his head.

The only thing which saved him was a Kevin Brock back pass.

That is written in Everton folklore and it is true.

Alex Ferguson came to Manchester in the autumn of 1987.

They were calling for his head in February 1990 and he would have been out on his ear but for a fellow name of Mark Robins who scored a goal at Forest and saved Fergie.

Here's the thing.

At the time they faced their High Noon at Oxford and Nottingham respectively, both had been in their jobs about the same length of time or slightly longer than Bobby has been in situ with us.

Both went on to win cups that season and league titles and European honours shortly afterwards.

In fact......in Bobby's first two and a half years at Everton he actually has the team in a healthier looking state than either Howard or Fergie did at a similar stage in their tenures at GP and OT respectively.

And you can take that as read from from someone who sat in the Main Stand with a mere 13,000 other hardy bucks circa 1982 as we played a goalless draw with Cov.

That was the nadir we had sunk to under Howard but the board stuck with him.

The moral of this tale is you just don't know what is round the corner for us.

But believe me......things look a lot rosier for EFC now than they did at Christmas 1983.

 

[maddison]

The thing with Shaqiri and Payet is wages I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Shaqiri and Payet getting 100k a week? While baines is our highest at 80-90k?

I can find reference online to 60k and 70k per week respectively. It would be interesting to know if wages was the primary factor though.

 

[USABlue]

I can find reference to 60k and 70k per week respectively online. It would be interesting to know if wages was the primary factor though.

Ah fair enough! Found a guardian article saying payets base wage is 60k but he gets 10k more per appearance and there are other performance based sums.

 

[ianefc]

Been posted in another thread, think it should be placed here also as it's relevant

The Guardian

Gareth Barry criticises Everton for not closing out winning positions
• Barry: ‘We’ve been in this situation before and not learned our lesson’
• Stoke loss was third time in six games Everton failed to preserve lead


Gareth Barry congratulates Romelu Lukaku after scoring his second goal against Stoke City. Photograph: Carl Recine/Reuters
Andy Hunter

Tuesday 29 December 2015 22.30 GMT

Gareth Barry has fiercely criticised Everton’s mentality and tactics under Roberto Martínez and said both are to blame for the team’s inability to protect a lead.

The experienced midfielder, Everton’s current captain in the absence of Phil Jagielka, revealed his frustrations after Stoke City won 4-3 at Goodison Park on Monday despite being 3-2 behind with 10 minutes to play. It was the third time in six Premier League games that Everton have failed to preserve a lead and left Martínez’s team 11th in the table, nine points adrift of fourth place and nine points above the relegation zone.

Everton’s manager once again spoke of his young players’ need to learn after the Stoke defeat and his preference for a team that out-scores opponents rather than one that “just wants to be solid and grind out wins by the odd goal.” But Martínez’s approach and calls for patience evidently jar with one of his most influential players.

Barry said: “We have just got ourselves to blame. We’ve been in this situation many times before and clearly we have not learned our lesson. You get that sort of game and then find yourself ahead and with 12, 15 minutes to go, we’ve not got ourselves in a position, or in formation on the pitch, to close the game out.

“We need to change our mentality and as a team being able to realise the situation of the game. We have got attacking players that do want to score goals but once you get ahead in an end-to-end game like that there is an opportunity to win, which is the third goal for us, and we need to close the game out. We have to change our mentality that we don’t need to score again but need to keep a clean sheet to win the game.”

The 34-year-old’s outspoken attack presents a fresh problem for Martínez, who lost midfielders James McCarthy and Tom Cleverley to injury against Stoke and witnessed another costly error from the goalkeeper Tim Howard. There were sarcastic cheers for the USA international from Everton supporters when he collected a cross in the first half of Monday’s defeat, with Howard responding with sarcastic applause towards the Gwladys Street. He was later culpable for Joselu’s 80th minute equaliser.

But Barry added: “We are not blaming individuals. It was a dangerous ball. Tim has made a decision, not an easy one but on another day he gets a touch and it doesn’t fall to one of their players. As a senior player I will take responsibility (for the result) but it is a team job.

“We have had meetings about it. It is a team job, we have spoken about it so everyone knows their jobs. Unfortunately we let ourselves down.

 

[JAYTALITY]

I really don't think you read my post properly. When I look at what Martinez is doing, I see massive potential. It's not blind faith, but a calculated gamble that it will pay off. I don't expect us to be knocking it out of the park every season, we don't have the resources to do so, but we can at least see that Martinez is a couple of tweaks away from achieving something brilliant. I like what our manager is doing, and expect it to pay off. I suppose I am happy to wait and see, actually.

Your blind fate is is typical Irish Catholicism or perhaps Everton. Goodison may be Church. We just need to figure out who is the priest buggering you Is it Martinez? The players? back staff? Pope bill? ..... That friendly uncle of yours?

You decide Prevenger17, I'm smoking another joint.

 

[ianefc]

Oh my.

 

[dannyboy]

carlin.

Howard took the job here in the summer of 1981.

In the January or February of 1984 they were calling for his head.

The only thing which saved him was a Kevin Brock back pass.

That is written in Everton folklore and it is true.

Alex Ferguson came to Manchester in the autumn of 1987.

They were calling for his head in February 1990 and he would have been out on his ear but for a fellow name of Mark Robins who scored a goal at Forest and saved Fergie.

Here's the thing.

At the time they faced their High Noon at Oxford and Nottingham respectively, both had been in their jobs about the same length of time or slightly longer than Bobby has been in situ with us.

Both went on to win cups that season and league titles and European honours shortly afterwards.

In fact......in Bobby's first two and a half years at Everton he actually has the team in a healthier looking state than either Howard or Fergie did at a similar stage in their tenures at GP and OT respectively.

And you can take that as read from from someone who sat in the Main Stand with a mere 13,000 other hardy bucks circa 1982 as we played a goalless draw with Cov.

That was the nadir we had sunk to under Howard but the board stuck with him.

The moral of this tale is you just don't know what is round the corner for us.

But believe me......things look a lot rosier for EFC now than they did at Christmas 1983.

Madness how two exceptional examples get rooted out as though they are relevant to our situation.

The moral of this story is it's excellent if you believe in miracles.