Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

if moyes was manager right now, with the same results dave would be screaming bloody murder about how unacceptable it is.

The fact it's Martinez, and just because it's literally NOT moyes is why he refuses to see the main faults of Martinez.

It's literally like the opposite of vickery with mori, but martinez for davek, in the sense that he just can't see the negatives of him.


@davek i really like you, but i'm sorry we should be aiming for top 5, you've fervently lowered your standards purely because of this managers recent failures. Anything below top 5/6 is a failure, would have been for Moyes, would be for another manager, remains the same for Martinez.

Maybe I would, but that'd be because of the length of time he'd have had to create a functioning football team capable of playing a bit and nicking a cup.

Believe me mate: I backed Moyes to the hilt between 2002 and 2009. He had enough time from me and others before he became a target for criticism. Martinez has been here two and a bit seasons and got us a record points total, very good style of football and a possible cup final in the new year.

Maybe that's the context his stay here so far should be looked in?

 

[mythbuster]

Which is what I said - I expect us to finish bare minimum 7th and go beyond that probably.

That's why I'm classifying what would be failure in my eyes. I see any attempt to redefined the goalposts and say something like 9th/10th is "OK" as ridiculous.

I get what you are saying. Normally you look at a table at the end of the season and it's a fair reflection of how good the teams are. I don't think that will be the case this year. I honestly have no idea who the best team in the league is. It's ridiculous to say Leicester are better than Citeh, but the league table says they are. It's just a weird. weird season mate.

 

[Tubey]

Sorry mate, but I disagree. Palace are level with Spurs, above liverpool, Chelsea and Man U. Leicester are top, ffs. It's just a very, very, competitive league. Not sure how "WE'VE made it competitive by not pushing on"

Because we're not doing what Palace and Leicester have done, and we had a better starting point.

If Palace and Leicester are doing that, and Everton aren't, then we are failing in comparison. That's why I said over the course of a 38 game season I do not believe West Ham, Crystal Palace or Watford should be able to live with us - and if they do, it's because Martinez hasn't matched their performance.

I'll accept Leicester as a fluke that you can't do nothing about, but not the others. If we finish 8th, we haven't achieved anything in the league and there's no progression. 7th I can live with as you displace the 'traditional' top six, so you're treading water and you can make the argument that you are on track. It's fine margins, but for me, 8th is failure. 9th and 10th is definite grounds for sacking, as it'd be completely unacceptable.

 

[davek]

Nah, we should be looking to qualify for Europe every year. We've competed in the past for that and nothing's changed in my eyes to suggest we shouldn't again. To accept anything else is a bizarre lowering of expectations to fit in with your agenda.

Would you swap our squad for West Ham's, Palace, Leicester and Watford? I'm guessing you wouldn't. To finish below these teams would be a failure of a season in my opinion, unless of course we lift a trophy, which is highly unlikely. Hand on heart are we going to beat City over two legs? For the life of me I can't see it.

We should be looking for a European spot, or at least attempting to get it. I believe that's what the manager's said umpteen times he's aiming for. We've been there once in his time here, missed out last season. Let's see what this season brings in terms of possible qualification via all routes.

 

[dannyboy]

We should be looking for a European spot, or at least attempting to get it. I believe that's what the manager's said umpteen times he's aiming for. We've been there once in his time here, missed out last season. Let's see what this season brings in terms of possible qualification via all routes.

I'm glad the manager sees that as the target. I don't think we should qualify every year but in the seasons we don't compete for it we have fell short.

The next month is really going to define our season in terms of that now. We've got a difficult run of fixtures, including a difficult semi final draw. He's got to pull something out of the bag because right now I don't see us doing much in this period given our form going into it.

 

[mythbuster]

Because we're not doing what Palace and Leicester have done, and we had a better starting point.

If Palace and Leicester are doing that, and Everton aren't, then we are failing in comparison. That's why I said over the course of a 38 game season I do not believe West Ham, Crystal Palace or Watford should be able to live with us - and if they do, it's because Martinez hasn't matched their performance.

I'll accept Leicester as a fluke that you can't do nothing about, but not the others. If we finish 8th, we haven't achieved anything in the league and there's no progression. 7th I can live with as you displace the 'traditional' top six, so you're treading water and you can make the argument that you are on track. It's fine margins, but for me, 8th is failure. 9th and 10th is definite grounds for sacking, as it'd be completely unacceptable.

Don't get me wrong, i'd be disappointed if we finished 10th. Wouldn't be calling for the gaffer to get sacked if we did though.

 

[AaronTheBlue]

Maybe I would, but that'd be because of the length of time he'd have had to create a functioning football team capable of playing a bit and nicking a cup.

Believe me mate: I backed Moyes to the hilt between 2002 and 2009. He had enough time from me and others before he became a target for criticism. Martinez has been here two and a bit seasons and got us a record points total, very good style of football and a possible cup final in the new year.

Maybe that's the context his stay here so far should be looked in?

Personally mate, (i remember your very valid points on Moyes, and i actually agreed with a lot of them at the time btw) i think you're letting your hatred / bored of moyes nature stop you from seeing things as they are. Martinez had a great first season, but he is not that manager anymore.

I hope he turns it around, come the end of the season, i hope i'm made to shut up, because at the end of the day i want best for Everton.. but with this squad this first team.. [i don't think he uses enough of the squad as a whole anymore, either] anything below sixth place is a failure, you know that Dave.

But i think you've backed yourself in a corner for so long with the fight for him that you can't see any of his failures other than not dropping Tim Howard, where as if it was the other fella' you'd be picking out every single one of his failures (inability to be ruthless, seeming inability to get more than two wins on the trot consecutively, inability to have any form of defensive coaching semblance) all these are extremely big faults, and are holding us back. Don't get me wrong he has some great things as well, his building on with the academy, his football at times is brilliant to watch, and his charisma at first are all great, great traits.

Do i think he's a bad manager myself?, no.. i think he is average, i think he had the potential to be great.. in his first season but he's no longer a proactive manager, he's reactive and a little tactically naive, and afraid to take attacking chances. He's lost what made him fantastic.

What i'm asking of you though mate, is to judge him without the viewpoint that you have, because right now it's extremely bias because he ISN'T moyes.. see it from in the middle and you know a lot of the things he is doing is unacceptable.

 

[ijjysmith]

So Palace, Watford, Leicester and West Ham have better squads than us? I don't think they do but if that's the case then it'll be because we've got the likes of Hibbert, Pienaar and McGeady sitting around scratching their balls and picking up a wage.

I'm not sure what West Ham, Palace and the rest have to do with it.

Agree on the players you mention though.

 

[dannyboy]

Don't get me wrong, i'd be disappointed if we finished 10th. Wouldn't be calling for the gaffer to get sacked if we did though.

If we do finish 10th and don't win a trophy then there's valid reasons for him not leading us into next season.

Probably depends on the context of how it all pans out of course, Anfield derby win, good performance in the FA Cup etc.

 

[dannyboy]

I'm not sure what West Ham, Palace and the rest have to do with it.

Agree on the players you mention though.

Because right now they're above us in the league.

 

[ijjysmith]

Don't get me wrong, i'd be disappointed if we finished 10th. Wouldn't be calling for the gaffer to get sacked if we did though.

I think I will be mate. Unless there's a cup in there. Which there probs won't be.

 

[ijjysmith]

Because right now they're above us in the league.

Oh right. But the season hasn't finished yet.

 

[dannyboy]

Oh right. But the season hasn't finished yet.

It hasn't but it doesn't look very good right now. We've got a tricky run of games coming up and I'm more inclined to say we'll drift further backwards than up the table.

Then again we all thought we'd march up the table during the last 4 games so who knows...

 

[mythbuster]

Oh right. But the season hasn't finished yet.

So on that note, we should probably expect Chelsea to finish above us too.

 

[ijjysmith]

It hasn't but it doesn't look very good right now. We've got a tricky run of games coming up and I'm more inclined to say we'll drift further backwards than up the table.

Then again we all thought we'd march up the table during the last 4 games so who knows...

I think the 'who knows' is the best way to look at it mate.

I'd be absolutely dead against changing the manager mid season no matter what. There's just too much to change and for a new man to get his ideas over. But come the end of the season. Well who knows what will have happened.