Roberto Martinez discussion

[Blues Harp]

Mid-table is delivering in this PL now. I've seen enough this season of the effect the general spread of cash is having on our domestic football scene. It's all about staying in a reasonably safe place, or just above it - that represents a good season and (as a bonus) doing well in the cups. That's what the owners of every club outside the financial elite with the expensively assembled squads will accept.

The landscape has changed. It isn't me just trying to lower the bar for Martinez's benefit, that's just the way the situation has been moving. And that's what club board of directors will judge their hiring and firing policy on.

Personally I'd accept anywhere in the top half of the table as long as the football is good and we give the cups all we've got.

How the mighty have fallen - sadly you have a point - staying in the prem is the aim of most clubs. We should as the Esk says change our motto because NSNO does not apply any more. Still doesn't change the fact that our defence needs improving and Martinez seems incapable of doing that on current evidence. Interesting to see where Leicester finish up though.....

 

[Ihaters]

We were best of the rest, spent money and now accept struggling to keep up with the rest..

Poor that.

 

[Tubey]

I'd have agreed 100% with that not so long ago. I'm more and more convinced now though that the border between us (as traditional 'best of the rest' team) and those type of teams you mention is a porous one. The PL has moved on and changed with all this cash...even since Martinez's first season, never mind from the era Moyes was here....and it's only going to get more uncertain...which can be good for us as well as bad.

You're trying to change the goalposts for little reason. Anything below 7th is a failure.

 

[davek]

You're trying to change the goalposts for little reason. Anything below 7th is a failure.

I'm really not. I think we probably will finish about there, but that doesn't nullify my point. There is change afoot. It's not one we need necessarily fear though.

 

[Tubey]

I'm really not. I think we probably will finish about there, but that doesn't nullify my point. There is change afoot. It's not one we need necessarily fear though.

If we finish below 7th, it's a failure. You seem to be covering your bases against that possibility, which I actually think is unnecessary as I think we will finish 7th.

But anything below is moving backwards with no valid excuse for the manager and should be, and will be, classified as a failure.

 

[Brendan Janus]

If we finish below 7th, it's a failure. You seem to be covering your bases against that possibility, which I actually think is unnecessary as I think we will finish 7th.

But anything below is moving backwards with no valid excuse for the manager and should be, and will be, classified as a failure.

I can't see us finishing 7th or higher !

Unless there is drastic improvement, probably finish around 14th & 15th !!

 

[davek]

If we finish below 7th, it's a failure. You seem to be covering your bases against that possibility, which I actually think is unnecessary as I think we will finish 7th.

But anything below is moving backwards with no valid excuse for the manager and should be, and will be, classified as a failure.

That's a ridiculous statement. 60 points plus a good cup run is acceptable this season. Not many other teams will achieve that.

It's a good job you dont own the club, we'd have had Sam Alardyce or Sean Dyce in charge by now.

 

[Tubey]

That's a ridiculous statement. 60 points plus a good cup run is acceptable this season. Not many other teams will achieve that.

It's a good job you dont own the club, we'd have had Sam Alardyce or Sean Dyce in charge by now.

If Moyes was in charge, you'd have the same goalposts. It's not an unreasonable ask - if we finish below 7th, he's failed in his domestic league target, end of story.

If you have confidence in the manager, you should be expecting him to achieve that target and, to be blunt, go beyond that. Since 2006, we've finished outside the top seven twice, with the lowest position under Martinez last season. You said that was a blip, you said he'd come good - let's see it happen.

 

[Tubey]

I can't see us finishing 7th or higher !

Unless there is drastic improvement, probably finish around 14th & 15th !!

I expect us to be in the top eight by the start of the year. I think if we play like we have recently, we'll beat Stoke and Newcastle - we just need to tighten up the defence a bit and we'll have a very strong team that not many will match.

It's bizarre that I have more confidence in Martinez than davek does, but I honestly do at this point - I think we're as good going forward as anyone in the league. If Lukaku stays fit, I have confidence in a top seven finish. I don't think West Ham, Crystal Palace, Watford or indeed Liverpool are in the same class as us over a 38 game season.

 

[KevMirallas]

To me it seems pretty simple.

Long term, if he can keep this group of players together we will have success. Short term, he needs to be just successful enough to make sure those players don't bolt. For that reason, it would be foolish to ditch the long term plan before even discovering how the short term one is going. We're in the middle now, we don't know enough.

Christ, that was a load of Brendan-esque waffle. Don't mind me.

 

[mythbuster]

Anything could happen this season. The margins are very fine. If the first seventeen games are mirrored (in terms of points per game) then the title winners will win it with 74-79 points (can't be arsed doing the exact maths, but it's somewhere between the two.)

Just let that sink in....

It's a very, very tight and competitive league and we have no right to expect to finish anywhere other than comfortably safe. However, the flip side to that is; if we pull our fingers out in defence (or even just get some luck for an extended spell,) then we could really have a great season in terms of where we finish.

EDIT: Yeah, messed up with the projected points. Ignore me.

 

[AaronTheBlue]

If Moyes was in charge, you'd have the same goalposts. It's not an unreasonable ask - if we finish below 7th, he's failed in his domestic league target, end of story.

If you have confidence in the manager, you should be expecting him to achieve that target and, to be blunt, go beyond that. Since 2006, we've finished outside the top seven twice, with the lowest position under Martinez last season. You said that was a blip, you said he'd come good - let's see it happen.

if moyes was manager right now, with the same results dave would be screaming bloody murder about how unacceptable it is.

The fact it's Martinez, and just because it's literally NOT moyes is why he refuses to see the main faults of Martinez.

It's literally like the opposite of vickery with mori, but martinez for davek, in the sense that he just can't see the negatives of him.


@davek i really like you, but i'm sorry we should be aiming for top 5, you've fervently lowered your standards purely because of this managers recent failures. Anything below top 5/6 is a failure, would have been for Moyes, would be for another manager, remains the same for Martinez.

 

[dannyboy]

Mid-table is delivering in this PL now. I've seen enough this season of the effect the general spread of cash is having on our domestic football scene. It's all about staying in a reasonably safe place, or just above it - that represents a good season and (as a bonus) doing well in the cups. That's what the owners of every club outside the financial elite with the expensively assembled squads will accept.

The landscape has changed. It isn't me just trying to lower the bar for Martinez's benefit, that's just the way the situation has been moving. And that's what club board of directors will judge their hiring and firing policy on.

Personally I'd accept anywhere in the top half of the table as long as the football is good and we give the cups all we've got.

Nah, we should be looking to qualify for Europe every year. We've competed in the past for that and nothing's changed in my eyes to suggest we shouldn't again. To accept anything else is a bizarre lowering of expectations to fit in with your agenda.

Would you swap our squad for West Ham's, Palace, Leicester and Watford? I'm guessing you wouldn't. To finish below these teams would be a failure of a season in my opinion, unless of course we lift a trophy, which is highly unlikely. Hand on heart are we going to beat City over two legs? For the life of me I can't see it.

 

[mythbuster]

Nah, we should be looking to qualify for Europe every year. We've competed in the past for that and nothing's changed in my eyes to suggest we shouldn't again. To accept anything else is a bizarre lowering of expectations to fit in with your agenda.

Would you swap our squad for West Ham's, Palace, Leicester and Watford? I'm guessing you wouldn't. To finish below these teams would be a failure of a season in my opinion, unless of course we lift a trophy, which is highly unlikely. Hand on heart are we going to beat City over two legs? For the life of me I can't see it.

We're not financially strong enough to be demanding Europe every year. Some years, sure. Expecting it every year is a false sense of entitlement.

 

[AaronTheBlue]

We're not financially strong enough to be demanding Europe every year. Some years, sure. Expecting it every year is a false sense of entitlement.

This annoys me, this statement is a agenda filled fallacy.

It is absolutely NOT a false sense of entitlement no one is saying WE SHUD WIN DA LEAGUE LA, challenging for europe, which is something for the main we have done for the best past of the past 12-13 years, whilst improving on the squad from then... which means we SHOULD be challenging for europe, infact with the first team we have we absolutely should, that should be the aim, if not higher and not finishing in those positions is a absolute failure.