Tim Howard

[Kurt.]

Ouch. The American thing again eh. In this same thread I have called for Joel and expressed my disapoiontment that he proved me so wrong yesterday. If anything I was defending the manager's choice to return Howard at the time not Howard's play.

I'm just a bit more pragmatic about football situations, or willing to let an established pattern of player play be broken by a new established pattern rather than by isolated events before binning them. You will see a similar tone to my treatment of players like Barry(still floundering) or Baines (seemed to be getting back on track) or Mirallas (who is well less established than Howard had been). If there is fault with my sensibilities it lies there, not in the place I happened to have escaped the womb in.

Robles mostly performed on par with Howard (both which would be considered unacceptable) except for the three game clean sheet stretch. In that stretch Everton faced two bad teams and Liverpool. He was basically untested in the two matches against bad sides and in fact was beaten in a manner that Howard (or whomever the "number 1" is) would have been derided for. All that is fact. Yet that was enough to turn the tide.

Howard

Not really fact though is it....... It's you're interpretation of events.

 

[Kurt.]

If Howard is still here next season I'm going to support man city instead.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Eh?

what?...only way he will get dropped is if he does something catastrophical

 

[TheFinnFan]

What? It cost us two points to take a bit of pressure off us - arsenal, and Stoke away next!

we can take them both. chill

 

[Walsall Blue]

If he's as good a man as we're lead to believe after that shambolic display yesterday he ought to drop himself. ..

 

[PeterPrinciple]

Not really fact though is it....... It's you're interpretation of events.

I keep getting sucked in...I really don't care except for the fact that I am accused of bias because i was born over here and so was the keeper, if i used that same argument in every thread about each of our players, it would be laughed at, and as such the assertion that I have star spangled eyes is laughable here as well.

So far this season Tim Howard has played 75% of the minutes with Joel taking the rest.

Howard has conceded MORE than 75% of the goals against. (31 of 37 83% 28 of 34 if you remove PEN 82%)
Howard has faced SLIGHTLY MORE than 75% SOT (73 of 94 78%)
Howard has faced ALL the PKs. (3)
Howard has SLIGHTLY LESS than 75% of the saves (43 of 58 74%)

Joel does have a healthy 11% advantage in SOT/saved. And Howard is far below the standard in this department. (Courtios on the table leaders being the standard I use-though that is also not fair since he sees lower quality chances against him due to skill advvantages on the field Howard AND Joel do not enjoy)
BUT This does not take into account opponent quality. In his run as starter Joel only faced West Ham (FACup) Man City and LFC from the top of the table. He conceded goals to man City and West Ham. He only saw two shots on target against City. Surely Howard could have pulled off a similar 1 for 2 save performance there.(the second being a low shot hit nearly right at him from 20+ yards.) Joel also conceded 3 to NC and 2 to Hull.

My only point is that the "Joel took over" narrative is false. He may very well be coming into form and be ready, and at the very least he needs a shot because we can't have our keeper passing balls to the feet of opponents.(I can't say that last point enough. I want to see Joel, Howard has made too many mistakes all year) but to say he was aces is to remember wrong or to remember a different "interpretation" of actual events because you are frustrated with the events that transpired today.

 

[Goat]

Its not just about shots saved, its about commanding the area, making the defenders feel safe.

Its about coming for a simple cross and actually catching it, its about not doing star jumps when an attacker is clean through.

Stats mean nothing, they only highlight things that your memory doesnt recall, but memory tells me that Howard is finished and the fact that we have the same discussion every season at some point tells me that he should be dropped and sold as soon as is humanly possible.

I dont care where he was born, I would sell Osman tomorrow and hes English.

 

[Hellerad]

To be fair, Joel does not instill great confidence in me, but since September, Howard has filled me with bowel movement inducing dread.

I rationalized it for a while, but Howard has been poor since his summer fame and contract extension.

 

[sageyefc]

I keep getting sucked in...I really don't care except for the fact that I am accused of bias because i was born over here and so was the keeper, if i used that same argument in every thread about each of our players, it would be laughed at, and as such the assertion that I have star spangled eyes is laughable here as well.

So far this season Tim Howard has played 75% of the minutes with Joel taking the rest.

Howard has conceded MORE than 75% of the goals against. (31 of 37 83% 28 of 34 if you remove PEN 82%)
Howard has faced SLIGHTLY MORE than 75% SOT (73 of 94 78%)
Howard has faced ALL the PKs. (3)
Howard has SLIGHTLY LESS than 75% of the saves (43 of 58 74%)

Joel does have a healthy 11% advantage in SOT/saved. And Howard is far below the standard in this department. (Courtios on the table leaders being the standard I use-though that is also not fair since he sees lower quality chances against him due to skill advvantages on the field Howard AND Joel do not enjoy)
BUT This does not take into account opponent quality. In his run as starter Joel only faced West Ham (FACup) Man City and LFC from the top of the table. He conceded goals to man City and West Ham. He only saw two shots on target against City. Surely Howard could have pulled off a similar 1 for 2 save performance there.(the second being a low shot hit nearly right at him from 20+ yards.) Joel also conceded 3 to NC and 2 to Hull.

My only point is that the "Joel took over" narrative is false. He may very well be coming into form and be ready, and at the very least he needs a shot because we can't have our keeper passing balls to the feet of opponents.(I can't say that last point enough. I want to see Joel, Howard has made too many mistakes all year) but to say he was aces is to remember wrong or to remember a different "interpretation" of actual events because you are frustrated with the events that transpired today.

Its not about shots faced, its about the other aspects of the game where Howard is falling way short, command of the box, distribution, authority.

Against the so called weaker sides you mentioned, he may not of faced that many shots but they were launching the ball into the box all day long, and he was coming and catching or getting good punches away things Howard fails with, and you could see the defenders with him look so much more solid

 

[Kurt.]

I keep getting sucked in...I really don't care except for the fact that I am accused of bias because i was born over here and so was the keeper, if i used that same argument in every thread about each of our players, it would be laughed at, and as such the assertion that I have star spangled eyes is laughable here as well.

So far this season Tim Howard has played 75% of the minutes with Joel taking the rest.

Howard has conceded MORE than 75% of the goals against. (31 of 37 83% 28 of 34 if you remove PEN 82%)
Howard has faced SLIGHTLY MORE than 75% SOT (73 of 94 78%)
Howard has faced ALL the PKs. (3)
Howard has SLIGHTLY LESS than 75% of the saves (43 of 58 74%)

Joel does have a healthy 11% advantage in SOT/saved. And Howard is far below the standard in this department. (Courtios on the table leaders being the standard I use-though that is also not fair since he sees lower quality chances against him due to skill advvantages on the field Howard AND Joel do not enjoy)
BUT This does not take into account opponent quality. In his run as starter Joel only faced West Ham (FACup) Man City and LFC from the top of the table. He conceded goals to man City and West Ham. He only saw two shots on target against City. Surely Howard could have pulled off a similar 1 for 2 save performance there.(the second being a low shot hit nearly right at him from 20+ yards.) Joel also conceded 3 to NC and 2 to Hull.

My only point is that the "Joel took over" narrative is false. He may very well be coming into form and be ready, and at the very least he needs a shot because we can't have our keeper passing balls to the feet of opponents.(I can't say that last point enough. I want to see Joel, Howard has made too many mistakes all year) but to say he was aces is to remember wrong or to remember a different "interpretation" of actual events because you are frustrated with the events that transpired today.

I never accused you of any bias my friend, I merely pointed ou that you stated your own opinion as actual fact when it clearly isn't...... I'm sorry if you're offended over that.

 

[PeterPrinciple]

Its not just about shots saved, its about commanding the area, making the defenders feel safe.

Its about coming for a simple cross and actually catching it, its about not doing star jumps when an attacker is clean through.

Stats mean nothing, they only highlight things that your memory doesnt recall, but memory tells me that Howard is finished and the fact that we have the same discussion every season at some point tells me that he should be dropped and sold as soon as is humanly possible.

I dont care where he was born, I would sell Osman tomorrow and hes English.

Me too. I don't care where a footballer were born neither. I agree that Howard is indefensable at this point and it is time for a change, just that Joel is no sure fire bet either.

 

[TrixyStevens]

Major liability. If we can get rid in the summer it would be terrific.

 

[PeterPrinciple]

I never accused you of any bias my friend, I merely pointed ou that you stated your own opinion as actual fact when it clearly isn't...... I'm sorry if you're offended over that.

The point you are responding to is merely a defense to the point above. No worries. it's just debate over football. The facts say that Joel has not been significantly better when in this season. Everyone's opinion says otherwise.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Me too. I don't care where a footballer were born neither. I agree that Howard is indefensable at this point and it is time for a change, just that Joel is no sure fire bet either.

However, Joel has done the simple things easily (collecting crosses, etc), plus he's made a few cracking saves as well.

Only thing Joel lacks compared to Howard is the quickness off the line, but if the last few games for Howard are anything to go by - T-h0W's absolutely no better for that.

 

[PeterPrinciple]

But to get back on topic, Howard...what happened- is it age? I know he was never great, but he was certainly EPL level. Is he just a tad slow? That will usually cost you power on parrays or cause you to deflect a ball you used to collect. Is that what we are seeing here? Did he not take care of his body? Plenty of less athletic keepers lasted longer. Is it because he always relied on athleticism and now that is faltering? What will it take to get rid of him then? MLS is the only hope to pay right?