Steven Naismith

[LinekersLegs]

I'm thinking of his ludicrous contract extensions for 'great Evertonians' Hibbert and Osman; his failure to bring through a kid like Browning when he clearly has the talent; his over-emphasis on the EL stages - a tournament that boosts his profile more than our PL chances; his failure to settle the Barkley/Naismith conundrum because he isn't willing to make an unpopular decision; his favouring a legend in the game in substitution making by taking off others when Eto'o is clearly not producing anything; his failure last summer to settle the CB situation and insisting we had enough back up when an injury and a falling out with two of them left us exposed.

My marks for Martinez's season so far would have to be no better than 4/10 I'm afraid. He's had a nightmare first third of the season and it'll continue in that vein if he doesn't get a grip and start managing in the same bold way he came in doing.

Hibbert, apart from his game vs Swansea has been fine as a backup RB
Browning already has more game time than Stones did at this stage last year, at least wait until the New Year before claiming he is stifling the lads development
The Europa league is probably oir best chance of getting into the CL next year and we are doing well in a tough group. If we had not taken it seriously we could well not be in such a good position.
Barkley has only played out of position for two games, isn't it a little quick to accuse him of fearing making an unpopular decison - he was fast enough with Distin.
McGeady was exhausted in the Sunderland match and was also on a booking, Eto'o wasn't
We have 4 experienced CBs, 2 promising youngsters and at least 3 others who can play the role (Barry, Besic and Hibbert). A lot of our other positions eg winger have far less depth.

 

[Elong]

I agree with a lot of what Dave has said there. Thing is, we know Martinez has the class and quality to turn it around and improve, he's learning still, I have plenty of patience.

 

[davek]

Hibbert, apart from his game vs Swansea has been fine as a backup RB
Browning already has more game time than Stones did at this stage last year, at least wait until the New Year before claiming he is stifling the lads development
The Europa league is probably oir best chance of getting into the CL next year and we are doing well in a tough group. If we had not taken it seriously we could well not be in such a good position.
Barkley has only played out of position for two games, isn't it a little quick to accuse him of fearing making an unpopular decison - he was fast enough with Distin.
McGeady was exhausted in the Sunderland match and was also on a booking, Eto'o wasn't
We have 4 experienced CBs, 2 promising youngsters and at least 3 others who can play the role (Barry, Besic and Hibbert). A lot of our other positions eg winger have far less depth.

Hibbert has played ok (let's not go overboard) I'd rather more game time was given to Browning than him though. Osman's new contract is a disgrace.

The EL is something you make a lot of changes for and turn off the gas in games when you have the game under control. He hasn't done that in home matches. I'd be looking for a big change in step on those issues in the remainder of the group games.

Barkley's hardly been back and in the thick of it and he expects him to either shuffle across the pitch out wide or else work with Naismith out wide (a player who CANT stay outside). For much the same reason Lukaku's season is mince.

Eto'o has Martinez star struck. he pretty much plays the games he wants and the manager accommodates him. TBF, I have less of an issue with Eto'o as he has been very useful, but he has on occasion played anonymously and I didn't see Martinez take decisive action when he obviously needed subbing.

We had basically three realistic CBs going into the season; the others were makeshift. I dont think anyone seriously questions that in the next couple of windows that position will need overhauling.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I'm thinking of his ludicrous contract extensions for 'great Evertonians' Hibbert and Osman; his failure to bring through a kid like Browning when he clearly has the talent; his over-emphasis on the EL stages - a tournament that boosts his profile more than our PL chances; his failure to settle the Barkley/Naismith conundrum because he isn't willing to make an unpopular decision; his favouring a legend in the game in substitution making by taking off others when Eto'o is clearly not producing anything; his failure last summer to settle the CB situation and insisting we had enough back up when an injury and a falling out with two of them left us exposed.

My marks for Martinez's season so far would have to be no better than 4/10 I'm afraid. He's had a nightmare first third of the season and it'll continue in that vein if he doesn't get a grip and start managing in the same bold way he came in doing.

Dave Barkley has been fit for about 5 games now it's hardly been a failure to settle the 'Barkley/Naismith conundrum'. Also it's clear we were going with Jags and Stones as our top pairing centre backs until Stones got a unfortunate injury and let Alcaraz and Distin in. All that is .beside the fact Hibbert and Osman have proved to be very good squad players when called upon so far this season.

I agree about Eto'o though.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Hibbert has played ok (let's not go overboard) I'd rather more game time was given to Browning than him though. Osman's new contract is a disgrace.

The EL is something you make a lot of changes for and turn off the gas in games when you have the game under control. He hasn't done that in home matches. I'd be looking for a big change in step on those issues in the remainder of the group games.

Barkley's hardly been back and in the thick of it and he expects him to either shuffle across the pitch out wide or else work with Naismith out wide (a player who CANT stay outside). For much the same reason Lukaku's season is mince.

Eto'o has Martinez star struck. he pretty much plays the games he wants and the manager accommodates him. TBF, I have less of an issue with Eto'o as he has been very useful, but he has on occasion played anonymously and I didn't see Martinez take decisive action when he obviously needed subbing.

We had basically three realistic CBs going into the season; the others were makeshift. I dont think anyone seriously questions that in the next couple of windows that position will need overhauling.

In other circumstances I too would have preferred Browning to have game time over Hibbert. However as a result of our first few games we were nervous in defence plus Stones/McCarthy/Mirallas injuries meant that the RB area had less protection than it usually does. Think there was too much risk of playing Browning, more for the lads development than anything else as once the crowd gets on your back it is hard to shrug that off, especially for a lad who had a bad time out on loan. Would have preferred if Osman hadn't got a new contract but not so bothered that would call it a disgrace.

We disagree on how easy it is to progress from the EL group stages.

I believe the issue is more with our lack of wingers than Martinez wanting to play Naismith/Barkley/Lukaku out wide, think you complaints about the lack of depth at CB are far more valid for the wide areas. Agree CB is an area that we do need to look at in the next couple of windows but we had bigger priorities this summer.

Perhaps there is an element of star struck - I certainly am a bit myself. But Eto'o does have the experience to create a goal even when playing badly.

 

[davek]

Dave Barkley has been fit for about 5 games now it's hardly been a failure to settle the 'Barkley/Naismith conundrum'. Also it's clear we were going with Jags and Stones as our top pairing centre backs until Stones got a unfortunate injury and let Alcaraz and Distin in. All that is .beside the fact Hibbert and Osman have proved to be very good squad players when called upon so far this season.

I agree about Eto'o though.

My point about Barkley/Naismith though is that it shouldn't be a conundrum if he had the courage of his convictions he had last season. He'd have cut through that knot with ease. You get back to power and pace asap and stop meddling around with force fitting the inclusion of a couple players who can never play in the same team in a million years. Admittedly he's also been hampered by Mirallas' recent absence. But for me Martinez has been woeful in his decision making this season....and that's from someone who still supports him 100% as the right man for the job.

I'm hugely disappointed in Roberto. I'd never have guessed he could make this number of spineless decisions in this space of time.

 

[bluemangroup]

My point about Barkley/Naismith though is that it shouldn't be a conundrum if he had the courage of his convictions he had last season. He'd have cut through that knot with ease. You get back to power and pace asap and stop meddling around with force fitting the inclusion of a couple players who can never play in the same team in a million years. Admittedly he's also been hampered by Mirallas' recent absence. But for me Martinez has been woeful in his decision making this season....and that's from someone who still supports him 100% as the right man for the job.

I'm hugely disappointed in Roberto. I'd never have guessed he could make this number of spineless decisions in this space of time.

But then you'd be dropping a man in sparkling form for one returning from injury. They absolutely shouldn't be in the same team and it should be one or the other but he has to try to find out sometimes.

 

[Walken]

In other circumstances I too would have preferred Browning to have game time over Hibbert. However as a result of our first few games we were nervous in defence plus Stones/McCarthy/Mirallas injuries meant that the RB area had less protection than it usually does. Think there was too much risk of playing Browning, more for the lads development than anything else as once the crowd gets on your back it is hard to shrug that off, especially for a lad who had a bad time out on loan. Would have preferred if Osman hadn't got a new contract but not so bothered that would call it a disgrace.

We disagree on how easy it is to progress from the EL group stages.

I believe the issue is more with our lack of wingers than Martinez wanting to play Naismith/Barkley/Lukaku out wide, think you complaints about the lack of depth at CB are far more valid for the wide areas. Agree CB is an area that we do need to look at in the next couple of windows but we had bigger priorities this summer.

Perhaps there is an element of star struck - I certainly am a bit myself. But Eto'o does have the experience to create a goal even when playing badly.

thats been a big problem, gerry hasn't been replaced, and where he supplied vital cover or impact from the bench, Atsu doesn't appear capable of doing so right now, we need something in january for that are for sure

 

[Dithering Dougie]

My point about Barkley/Naismith though is that it shouldn't be a conundrum if he had the courage of his convictions he had last season. He'd have cut through that knot with ease. You get back to power and pace asap and stop meddling around with force fitting the inclusion of a couple players who can never play in the same team in a million years. Admittedly he's also been hampered by Mirallas' recent absence. But for me Martinez has been woeful in his decision making this season....and that's from someone who still supports him 100% as the right man for the job.

I'm hugely disappointed in Roberto. I'd never have guessed he could make this number of spineless decisions in this space of time.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here considering the injury situation we've had and the increase in games. Once the season settles out and Martinez has the options to change games we'll see a return to last seasons positive game changing tactics.

I don't think it should be forgotten that it's also Martinez first season managing in Europe and he's learning as it goes along as much of some of our young players, once we hit our stride we'll be back to a more consistent team.

 

[LinekersLegs]

thats been a big problem, gerry hasn't been replaced, and where he supplied vital cover or impact from the bench, Atsu doesn't appear capable of doing so right now, we need something in january for that are for sure

We also have no academy players that look ready for emergency backup, Kennedy is probably the closest but doubt he is ready and he's on loan until Jan.

The only other options are Oviedo (injured and his best position is full back anyway) and Osman and I know how much you like that choice!

 

[bizzaro]

My point about Barkley/Naismith though is that it shouldn't be a conundrum if he had the courage of his convictions he had last season. He'd have cut through that knot with ease. You get back to power and pace asap and stop meddling around with force fitting the inclusion of a couple players who can never play in the same team in a million years. Admittedly he's also been hampered by Mirallas' recent absence. But for me Martinez has been woeful in his decision making this season....and that's from someone who still supports him 100% as the right man for the job.

I'm hugely disappointed in Roberto. I'd never have guessed he could make this number of spineless decisions in this space of time.

 

[davek]

In other circumstances I too would have preferred Browning to have game time over Hibbert. However as a result of our first few games we were nervous in defence plus Stones/McCarthy/Mirallas injuries meant that the RB area had less protection than it usually does. Think there was too much risk of playing Browning, more for the lads development than anything else as once the crowd gets on your back it is hard to shrug that off, especially for a lad who had a bad time out on loan. Would have preferred if Osman hadn't got a new contract but not so bothered that would call it a disgrace.

We disagree on how easy it is to progress from the EL group stages.

I believe the issue is more with our lack of wingers than Martinez wanting to play Naismith/Barkley/Lukaku out wide, think you complaints about the lack of depth at CB are far more valid for the wide areas. Agree CB is an area that we do need to look at in the next couple of windows but we had bigger priorities this summer.

Perhaps there is an element of star struck - I certainly am a bit myself. But Eto'o does have the experience to create a goal even when playing badly.

I honestly dont think Browning would either be overawed by game time (his Derby appearances was like a duck to water), or that fans would heap pressure and abuse on him. Sometimes a manager just has to let a developing player in the team and ind their feet. It has echoes of Barkley all this under Moyes. Maybe not as pronounced, but same principle involved.

Martinez has no excuses if he wants to retain the shape of the team - he brought in McGeady and Atsu and has had Pienaar to choose from until recently. He has experimented though with bizarre formations and team choices and succumbed to using one of the wide places to include players he doesn't have the courage to tell to sit on the bench. Of course Mirallas' return will force him to make a decision, but we shouldn't be waiting on that. He should be bold but he's lacking in that.

 

[davek]

But then you'd be dropping a man in sparkling form for one returning from injury. They absolutely shouldn't be in the same team and it should be one or the other but he has to try to find out sometimes.

I think the Barkley return was exercising the thoughts on positions/formations on these forums about 8 weeks ago. If we pretty much came to the conclusion that it was going to call for a firm decision on who got the nod I expect a highly paid manager to be able to anticipate that without needing the evidence of a handful of car crash performances to underline it for him.

 

[davek]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here considering the injury situation we've had and the increase in games. Once the season settles out and Martinez has the options to change games we'll see a return to last seasons positive game changing tactics.

I don't think it should be forgotten that it's also Martinez first season managing in Europe and he's learning as it goes along as much of some of our young players, once we hit our stride we'll be back to a more consistent team.

I concede that last point. It obviously is taxing him. For me though he's put way too many of our eggs in that basket.

 

[bluemangroup]

I think the Barkley return was exercising the thoughts on positions/formations on these forums about 8 weeks ago. If we pretty much came to the conclusion that it was going to call for a firm decision on who got the nod I expect a highly paid manager to be able to anticipate that without needing the evidence of a handful of car crash performances to underline it for him.

You play those fluid formations where everybody swaps round and sometimes it works perfectly and you look incredibly threatening as the defence doesn't know what to do with you. Sometimes it looks horribly disjointed and you play poorly. It happens. There were flashes of good play that maybe Martinez thought were enough to persist with it to see if it improved. It didn't and now the decision should be easier.

And a few lads on an Internet forum calling something before a manager doesn't make the manager a bad one nor does it mean necessarily the manager got it wrong. We want Martinez to be flexible and try different things but if it doesn't work we always knew better? Really?