David Moyes/Everton Big Game Mentality

[bflefc]

No it's fine the big game is the one you lose, I get it.

As the Op says we tend to lose the games we lose. It's undeniable.

No, for crying out loud's sake.. It's not.

What some of us are trying to say - and not trying to propel some anti-Moyes statistics or agenda - is that some matches taken on added importance/significance. This usually happens when we're at the business end of a campaign (be it league or cup). It can be those going for the title, or those embroiled in a relegation scrap, or those in the last 4 of a cup. "Pressure cooker", "squeeky bum time" etc. Those kinds of games. I guarantee such soundbites will be used in the next few weekends as clubs battle for glory or doom.

It basically means that Sunderland away for us was an important game, as we needed a result to keep pace and keep in the hunt. Lose, and it's pretty much all over. PRESSURE. If we get the result, then the following game takes on even more significance as we edge ever closer to the final reckoning. Therefore increasing the pressure. Hence, Fulham at home would have been more important in our season than Sunderland away the previous time out.

It doesn't mean that Sunderland away, maybe on the opening day of next season, is going to be equally as important as this season's trip. it'd be a different scenario. Similarly, Saturday's match against Sunderland (can't remember their position at start of play) was more important than a visit to another side in the same league position earlier in the season (eg if Norwich were in the same league spot when we visited them).

Teams will of course win matches over a season. They'll also lose them (unless they're Arsenal in that famous year). Hey, I reckon they'll even draw some, too. The overall record of victories/defeats of course gets you into a position where you either have something to go for, or has put you right in the quicksand as you approach the final half a dozen games. And this is where the pressure hits and marks out the true winners, or those perennial bottlers. Think of your Fergies here; he's a master at this time of year. He seems to get them going when it matters the most. Same for those managers who seem to perform Houdini-like miracles in getting a team out of the relegation mire when all hope seemed to have gone.

When the pressure has been on us, Moyes hasn't ever really delivered. In this sense, it means the business end of things. Not 3rd round cup ties; but semis/final. Not away trips in the Autumn to mid-table sides, but trips in April to mid-table sides. There is a mammoth gulf between the former and latter in both those examples. Moyes - like Fergie and the Houdini masters - will win, lose and draw x amount of matches over the course of a campaign, and quite often his record is better than most.

But the one common denominator with Moyes is his total lack of ability to send a side out when the pressure it at it's greatest - when we're on the verge of something, at the business end of the league or cup campaign - to get a result. We ALWAYS fluff our lines on those occasions.

 

[Allezfan]

Reading - we win
City - we win
Stoke- we win
Spurs - we draw
Qpr - we win
Arsenal - we draw
Sunderland we lose - bottled it in the biggest league game of the season

Reading - we win
City - we win
Stoke- we lose - bottled it in the biggest league game of the season

Reading - we win
City - we win
stoke - we win
Spurs - we lose
qpr - we lose - bottled it in the biggest league game of the season

Reading - we win
City - we win
Stoke- we win
Spurs - we draw
Qpr - we win
Arsenal - we draw
Sunderland we win
Fulham we win
Liverpool we lose - bottled it in the biggest league game of the season

 

[Philw]

You're either thick, stubborn, or being purposely obtuse with the start of this post. Clearly the qtr was the biggest, because as you state we didn't win it, so there wasn't a 'bigger' game to supercede it. Obviously if we lose in the first round that's' not quite as big a game, in the same way that qpr wasn't as big a game as sunderland. There's a direct correlation between 'closeness to the end' and importance/'bigness' that you seem to be completely ignoring.

No it's fine the big game is the one you lose, I get it.

As the Op says we tend to lose the games we lose. It's undeniable.

Clearly the latter then. Fine, you Moyes Appologists can defend him all you like, but if you can't even accept or debate simple concepts and ideas then there's not really a lot we can do for you. But Moyes is going to leave at some point you know, so you'd better start preparing yourself for what I'm sure you'll call 'the biggest day in the club's history'!!

 

[Allezfan]

Clearly the latter then. Fine, you Moyes Appologists can defend him all you like, but if you can't even accept or debate simple concepts and ideas then there's not really a lot we can do for you. But Moyes is going to leave at some point you know, so you'd better start preparing yourself for what I'm sure you'll call 'the biggest day in the club's history'!!

I hate Moyes, mate. I just think you're making my side look stupid with your ridiculous arguments.

 

[Allezfan]

The thing is if we had won the biggest league game of the season.

We'd still be 6th today, we'd still be behind spurs and chelsea, we'd still have played more games than both of them. we'd still have the hardest run in left and we'd still probably not make it into europe. It would have made very little difference unless we'd won at anfield and chelsea anyway, which we were never going to.

Hammer moyes for failing to take this incredibly talented side into europe, hammer him for not picking up enough point is the 34 games we've played to even make the last few games interesting, hammer him for our poor points total against the relagtion sides and our poor away form and games like sunderland and norwich where we've thrown away our chance at 4th. Above all hammer him for failing to take advantage of the easiest draw to a cup final that any team has ever got and the utter shambles vs wigan that should have cost him his job.

But don't just make stuff up.

 

[Philw]

I hate Moyes, mate. I just think you're making my side look stupid with your ridiculous arguments.

How are they ridiculous? I've tried to be fair minded about this, but you haven't even tried to debate or counter anything that i've said, or explain why you think i'm wrong? Do you not agree that games towards the end of the season take on more importance due to the limited time left to win vital points?

 

[steken1]

Come on, bet you can't even remember all the seven quarter finals we've played in since we won the cup.

It makes no odds. I was 10 when we won the cup. off the top of my head Boro x2, Wigan, S'land. The point is based on that we reach a QF every 2 1/2 seasons. You can't win a cup without it. So if a game that only comes about every 2 1/2 seasons isn't important, what is?

 

[Philw]

The thing is if we had won the biggest league game of the season.

We'd still be 6th today, we'd still be behind spurs and chelsea, we'd still have played more games than both of them. we'd still have the hardest run in left and we'd still probably not make it into europe. It would have made very little difference unless we'd won at anfield and chelsea anyway, which we were never going to.

Hammer moyes for failing to take this incredibly talented side into europe, hammer him for not picking up enough point is the 34 games we've played to even make the last few games interesting, hammer him for our poor points total against the relagtion sides and our poor away form and games like sunderland and norwich where we've thrown away our chance at 4th. Above all hammer him for failing to take advantage of the easiest draw to a cup final that any team has ever got and the utter shambles vs wigan that should have cost him his job.

But don't just make stuff up.

All that is true, but we didn't know it at the time. If we'd beaten Sunderland and Spurs had lost yesterday (hardly an inconcievable possibility) then the situation would be very different. Obviously would still be the outsiders, so to speak, but at least we'd have a punchers chance.

 

[Allezfan]

It makes no odds. I was 10 when we won the cup. off the top of my head Boro x2, Wigan, S'land. The point is based on that we reach a QF every 2 1/2 seasons. You can't win a cup without it. So if a game that only comes about every 2 1/2 seasons isn't important, what is?

My point is that a big game is one that you remember, it's one where win or lose have real actuall effects.

I can recite you the oppostion, scores, goal scorers and line ups of every semi final and final we've played when I've been alive like they happened yesterday.

The quarterfinals I had to look up to even remember how many they were.

 

[Allezfan]

How are they ridiculous? I've tried to be fair minded about this, but you haven't even tried to debate or counter anything that i've said, or explain why you think i'm wrong? Do you not agree that games towards the end of the season take on more importance due to the limited time left to win vital points?

To a certain extent. And if we'd gone into a slump then fair enough.

But over the last seven games we've won 5, drawn 2 and lost 1. That's not bad form. It's not enough but it's not enough largely because we left ourselves no margin of error because we didn't do that well earlier in the year.

For me you can't say that sunderland loss was any bigger than the norwich loss or the chelsea loss. Over 34 games we haven't been good enough. Magnifying this one loss to make a point about pressure situations is wrong headed, because the point of a winning team is every game has to be won. The pressure to keep up is always there and we've not been able to do it. If we had won at sunderland, the pressure would be on the game at fulham, if we'd lost at sprus and arsenal the pressure would have already been off by the sunderland game.

Saying sunderland was a big game and qpr wasn't just strikes me as transparently picking and choosing your examples to make a point.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Why is it that when we lose an important game it's always immediately thrown at Moyes for 'bottling it'?

Did Moyes play that awful ball to Sessegnon on Saturday, or did he then throw out a limp wrist at the shot that squirmed under his hand? Would any of you NOT picked Baines or Howard on Saturday? It's always chucked at Moyes & the players seeming escape criticism for their part.

Losing their on Saturday was predictable given the circumstances surrounding Di Canio, & we made sure of that by putting in a performance devoid of a cutting edge. The last 2 games prove nothing other than our need for a top quality striker if we're ever going to compete with those occupying the top few places in the league.

 

[Philw]

To a certain extent. And if we'd gone into a slump then fair enough.

But over the last seven games we've won 5, drawn 2 and lsot 1. That's not bad form. It's not enough but it's not enough largely because we left ourselves no margin of error because we didn't do that well earlier in the year.

For me you can't say that sunderland loss was any bigger than the norwich loss or the chelsea loss. Over 34 games we haven't been good enough. Magnifying this one loss to make a point about pressure situations is wrong headed, because the point of a winning team is every game has to be won. The pressure to keep up is always there and we've not been able to do it.

I can't argue with most of that post. Yes our recent form has been good, and yes it is our midseason form where the real problems lie. And on paper, or in the grander scheme of things, any 1 game is as important as any other (putting aside games where you can take points off your rivals), but in reality you surely can't believe that any single game 1/3 of the way into the season takes on as much importance at the time than one in the last 4/5 games does? That's the point, the timing of games adds an extra importance to games that normally would be insignificant, or at least no more important than any other.

 

[steken1]

Why is it that when we lose an important game it's always immediately thrown at Moyes for 'bottling it'?

Did Moyes play that awful ball to Sessegnon on Saturday, or did he then throw out a limp wrist at the shot that squirmed under his hand? Would any of you NOT picked Baines or Howard on Saturday? It's always chucked at Moyes & the players seeming escape criticism for their part.

Losing their on Saturday was predictable given the circumstances surrounding Di Canio, & we made sure of that by putting in a performance devoid of a cutting edge. The last 2 games prove nothing other than our need for a top quality striker if we're ever going to compete with those occupying the top few places in the league.

Mate there's plenty that wouldn't have played Howard and said Jan the man should keep his place. If Baines is injured and a shadow of himself then we have players who can play there and we can still win.

How many were saying drop Ross for Osman??? Not many.

How many people constantly level the correct accusation of favourites over form???

How many said Pienaar shouldn't play after talking about going on his hols before the season finished???(Looked like he's already gone)

I don't think we bottled it as such we were just awful and not up for it with plenty out of form or having a bad game. Nobody should escape blame when we're so poor. Just like no one is exempt from praise when we do well!

 

[steken1]

My point is that a big game is one that you remember, it's one where win or lose have real actuall effects.

I can recite you the oppostion, scores, goal scorers and line ups of every semi final and final we've played when I've been alive like they happened yesterday.

The quarterfinals I had to look up to even remember how many they were.

The future determines a big game not the past.

Once a game has gone it has no bearing on things, so doesn't matter, only the next one does.

 

[Allezfan]

I can't argue with most of that post. Yes our recent form has been good, and yes it is our midseason form where the real problems lie. And on paper, or in the grander scheme of things, any 1 game is as important as any other (putting aside games where you can take points off your rivals), but in reality you surely can't believe that any single game 1/3 of the way into the season takes on as much importance at the time than one in the last 4/5 games does? That's the point, the timing of games adds an extra importance to games that normally would be insignificant, or at least no more important than any other.

But the original post argues that the sunderland game was the single most important league game of the season and used that to make a point about how this team falls apart in big games.

And all I'm saying is that, that's only because we lost it. We had to basically, at worst, win 9 and draw 2 of our last 11 games, to get europe. Those 11 were all pretty important, with 4 being more improtant because they were against our rivals. If we go onto win our next 4 games, we'd have fallen short of our goal due to that loss at sunderland but would that mean we'd played badly in our only big game of the 11, or that we'd played well in ten of the eleven big games left and not the 11th.

If we won the sunderland game but lost one of the others, qpr, stoke, fulham, city etc we'd still be in the same position. Those other wins were just as needed as the one we didn't get was.