Moyes - should he stay or should he go?

[Moomin]

It is Moom's. Psychology is interesting to study

It's not rare, if anything you would be shocked at how many high executives in business are introverts.

 

[matty1878]

If I had to bet which club would win a trophy next I know who I’d bet on and it wouldn’t be us.

Ye city

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

It can happen I concede but its a rarity

Abraham Lincoln was an introvert. One of our problems is we appoint to many extroverts to power when it is thoughtful leaders that tend to be more successful.

Hell, Clough was an extrovert but Paisley was a quiet guy who preferred hoovering up silverware.

 

[kithnou]

I would have sent him upstairs in December when we were sitting in around 5th spot, prior to the inevitable bottle job emerging yet again. He's done his job, move him on.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I’m honestly still not over the weekend. No Ekitike, Isak who barely even moved upfront, Gakpo the one trick pony, Wirtz who barely even touched the ball, their third choice keeper in goal, and after drawing level we just dropped our keks for them, waited to see what subs they’d make first before doing anything, and dropped deeper and deeper before conceding from a corner to the one tall player they had on the pitch.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

It's not rare, if anything you would be shocked at how many high executives in business are introverts.

There is an argument I concede that quiet thoughtful leadership can be effective. It's not something you see in high performance managers who have a more vocal presence on the touchline though no doubt you'll give exceptions to that which of course there will be. I just don't think Baines is the personality type who'll take well to management but obviously this is a subjective view which is the whole point on a forum where opinions are voiced.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

Abraham Lincoln was an introvert. One of our problems is we appoint to many extroverts to power when it is thoughtful leaders that tend to be more successful.

Hell, Clough was an extrovert but Paisley was a quiet guy who preferred hoovering up silverware.

Of course there are exceptions. I made a general sweeping statement which in hindsight i shouldn't of. Anyway i just dont think Baines is managerial material and if we did promote from within (I'd say this is unlikely) I think Seamus not Baines will be the more likelier

 

[Moomin]

There is an argument I concede that quiet thoughtful leadership can be effective. It's not something you see in high performance managers who have a more vocal presence on the touchline though no doubt you'll give exceptions to that which of course there will be. I just don't think Baines is the personality type who'll take well to management but obviously this is a subjective view which is the whole point on a forum where opinions are voiced.

You said introverts are followers and not leaders.

That's a load of codswallop.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

You said introverts are followers and not leaders.

That's a load of codswallop.

It was a general sweeping statement which in hindsight was wrong.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

There is an argument I concede that quiet thoughtful leadership can be effective. It's not something you see in high performance managers who have a more vocal presence on the touchline though no doubt you'll give exceptions to that which of course there will be. I just don't think Baines is the personality type who'll take well to management but obviously this is a subjective view which is the whole point on a forum where opinions are voiced.

I think you're miles off with your view on leadership.

But on Baines - Im not sure his appetite is there. Im surprised hes still involved in football, I recall him being quite clear he would walk away from the game when he retired from playing.

 

[ClausThomsen]

I've said the quality of football is lower, apart from Bayern and PSG I don't see any others who are at vintage levels of days before

How are you measuring quality? A team being good to watch isn't necessarily an indicator that they are better than everyone else. And a team being robotic and dull isn't an indicator that they are rubbish at doing what teams are supposed to do - win points.

Obviously you can't directly compare different teams from different eras but were peak Mourinho Chelsea a bad side? They were often incredibly dull to watch but you can't say they didn't have game / competition winning quality. There were plenty of attractive footballing sides that they absolutely monstered.

You said any statement about Everton making progress should take into account that the "league has been utter rubbish". I argued that the league has maybe got tougher as the mid to lower sides have improved and the traditional top sides can no longer count on coasting to easy wins.

Your counter to that was that English teams have had a 'very noticeable' drop off in Europe. Which isn't true - teams have, by and large, progressed to similar or further stages of European competition this season in comparison to the last 3 or 4 years.

I totally understand the arguments about wanting rid of Moyes but on a straight progress metric I think it's difficult to argue for.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

I think you're miles off with your view on leadership.

But on Baines - Im not sure his appetite is there. Im surprised hes still involved in football, I recall him being quite clear he would walk away from the game when he retired from playing.

You may be right that I'm miles off. My opinions are formed from personal experiences where leadership tends to be more vocal than quiet. I've conceded I've made a mistake with using a general sweeping statement. Yes I remember that about Baines too. I would be surprised if he ever managed Everton permanently

 

[ClausThomsen]

Baines?

It's possible he's neither an introvert nor an extrovert. The bloke in his 40s could in some ways be very different to the bloke in his mid 20s.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

I

How are you measuring quality? A team being good to watch isn't necessarily an indicator that they are better than everyone else. And a team being robotic and dull isn't an indicator that they are rubbish at doing what teams are supposed to do - win points.

Obviously you can't directly compare different teams from different eras but were peak Mourinho Chelsea a bad side? They were often incredibly dull to watch but you can't say they didn't have game / competition winning quality. There were plenty of attractive footballing sides that they absolutely monstered.

You said any statement about Everton making progress should take into account that the "league has been utter rubbish". I argued that the league has maybe got tougher as the mid to lower sides have improved and the traditional top sides can no longer count on coasting to easy wins.

Your counter to that was that English teams have had a 'very noticeable' drop off in Europe. Which isn't true - teams have, by and large, progressed to similar or further stages of European competition this season in comparison to the last 3 or 4 years.

I totally understand the arguments about wanting rid of Moyes but on a straight progress metric I think it's difficult to argue for.

I'm talking about the level of player operating at the top sides. They aren't at the same level as before (or are playing too much football so football has become less about quality but more about quantity with the sheer amount of games they have to play plus the travelling)

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

You have plenty in different walks of life from the likes of business with the likes of Buffet, Gates and Zuckerberg.

I rather think some folk confuse being loud, brash and outgoing as being a good leader.

Which isn't what an extrovert actually is. Rather, it's more about preferred style of engagement, working and communication. I.e. some people like and thrive on constantly being around people and talking through problems. Others are much more likely to prefer time to focus think and analyse.

Less is more, respect is earned in different ways.