Virginia Giuffre

[Karbutar]

That's a huge leap.

Not really

 

[Rita_Poon]

Well, I struggled for an appropriate word there.

No kidding!

 

[Rita_Poon]

The reasonable interpretation of what I said is that she got mixed up with the wrong crowd and there were poor decisions somewhere along the way that led to that.

epstein ended up jailed for sex trafficking.
maxwell was made a token prisoner for a bit and is sunning herself in a country club (min security) in Texas.
and the guy who had the above pair facilitate his sordid deeds with teenage girls, lost his job shaking hands with murderous despots and dictators because they didn't want to be seen with him.
Reduced almost to a commoner*, even his penniless ex wife that he'd shacked back up with doesn't want to know any more.

The wrong crowd? These people are serious criminals, and even though the details and depth of their misdeeds are currently being withheld, two have been imprisoned, and the other is a world wide pariah that continues to deny absolutely everything.

you've played a blinder here Tone.

 

[davids]

Not really

Oh but it is.

 

[tonyhorne]

you've played a blinder here Tone.

Thank you

 

[Groucho]

A cautionary tale of the consequences of bad choices early in life and the difficulties of trying to blame everyone else when you are older ...

Eh?

Gotta be honest fella, this does read like you’re blaming someone for being abused.

 

[tonyhorne]

This will be my final reply to you, I assume you climb flag poles, have a fear of brown people and think Ant Middleton is a hero too, you’ve painted yourself as such so don’t shy away from the very real truths you’ve conveyed to everyone here.

Never been up a flag pole, my son in law is Fijian (although I think he describes himself more as black rather than brown, so he may not qualify as a counter argument to your assertion, although we have no fear of each other) and I have never heard of Ant Middleton. I also expressed very few, if any, of the views you claimed I did in your final reply post.

I am always prepared to be persuaded that I am wrong but this is unlikely to be the case when replies are little more than personal slurs and exaggerated inferences

 

[Bryan+]

Never been up a flag pole, my son in law is Fijian (although I think he describes himself more as black rather than brown, so he may not qualify as a counter argument to your assertion, although we have no fear of each other) and I have never heard of Ant Middleton. I also expressed very few, if any, of the views you claimed I did in your final reply post.

I am always prepared to be persuaded that I am wrong but this is unlikely to be the case when replies are little more than personal slurs and exaggerated inferences

Fair enough - I’m big enough to apologise for that, I am deeply sensitive to such topics and express it when I’m allowed, and I hope my apology stirs something in you, too.

 

[LinekersLegs]

I believe my original statement to be accurate except for the blame "everyone else" hyperbole. The reasonable interpretation of what I said is that she got mixed up with the wrong crowd and there were poor decisions somewhere along the way that led to that.

It would not surprise me if the choices made were naive and that she quickly found herself in an abusive arrangement that she regretted, but I do not know.

I do not know how those choices were made. I do not know why those choices were made, by her and not others, and I do not know where her friends and family were whilst all this (whatever it was) was going on. I genuinely do not know "what happened to her" and I suspect, respectfully, that none of us do. However, I will concede that whatever did happen is unlikely to be anything I would be happy for a daughter of mine to go through.

I understand the revulsion but, ultimately, very few people know for sure the truth of the whole sorry mess around Epstein. I suspect that there are no heroes and so, personally, I think it is best to consider the narrative around the subject of this thread to be a cautionary tale ...

Perhaps you might be interested in hearing Virginia’s own words what happened? Bear in mind she said she abused by a family friend at age 7, then by her father and ran away from home and lived on the streets/foster care for a time.

‘Prince Andrew believed having sex with me was his birthright’: Virginia Giuffre on her abuse at the hands of Epstein, Maxwell and the king’s brother

In an extract from her posthumous memoir, Virginia Roberts Giuffre remembers the day an ‘apex predator’ recruited her from Mar-a-Lago, aged just 16; how she was trafficked to a succession of wealthy and powerful men – and how everyone knew what was going on

www.theguardian.com

“So many young women, myself included, have been criticised for returning to Epstein’s lair even after we knew what he wanted from us. How can you complain about being abused, some have asked, when you could so easily have stayed away? But that stance discounts what many of us had been through before we encountered Epstein, as well as how good he was at spotting girls whose wounds made them vulnerable. Several of us had been molested or raped as children; many of us were poor or even homeless. We were girls who no one cared about, and Epstein pretended to care. A master manipulator, he threw what looked like a lifeline to girls who were drowning. If they wanted to be dancers, he offered dance lessons. If they aspired to be actors, he said he’d help them get roles. And then, he did his worst to them.”

Perhaps you could read the victim impact statements from his second trial cut short by his death? For the first trial where he got a sweetheart deal for admitting sex with underage girls the police had evidence from around 35 girls. An investigation by the Miami Herald had about 80. That expanded with later police investigations and evidence collected from witnesses and his properties. Currently the DOJ estimate that there were over 1000 victims.

This was systematic abuse on a huge scale, with some of the victims as young as 14, by a powerful man who was over 40. It wasn’t “poor decisions”, it was a predator picking off the most vulnerable prey. It is important that his victims are recognized as such, not blamed.

And I strongly disagree that there are no heroes - they are those women who survived their abuse and who, despite little backing or resources, stood up to their wealthy and well connected abusers and exposed them. Sadly there are still many more who deserve to be brought to justice.

Jane Doe No. 2: We didn’t have anyone on our side
“A lot of people asked why we spent so much time, why we stayed. It’s an experience that’s really hard to explain to people who haven’t gone through. Things happened slowly over time. We didn’t – it almost was like, putting it like that analogy of a frog being in a pan of water and slowly turning the flame up. You didn’t realize it was happening, and it just – I don’t think anyone can fully understand the experience, but I just – the blame feels very strong.

It wasn’t a situation where we were trying to extort money from someone. A lot of us were in very vulnerable situations and in extreme poverty, circumstances where we didn’t have anyone on our side, to speak on our behalf, and that’s really scary. You start to blame yourself because, at first, you don’t tell anyone what’s happening, and it becomes your deep, dark secret that you tried to keep from everyone. And I didn’t even know I was a victim until I spoke with my lawyers. I had no idea.

I had so much self-hatred and doubt and just guilt for everything. I still do. I still don’t feel like I deserve to say I’m a victim, and I think that’s a big problem with our society right now, that people are still blaming victims, and I think that does need to change.”

Jane Doe 7: I became a recluse for years
“Jeffrey Epstein ruined me. His recruiter ruined me. The far-reaching consequences of that day ruined my family’s lives.
I was changed forever and buried my assault deep down, where the darkness couldn’t hurt me anymore, but of course, it has always been here, lingering and affecting me unconsciously.

At the time, I was mired in shame, guilt and humiliation. I had somehow tricked myself into thinking that I had allowed the assault to happen, that I did it to myself, that I don’t deserve to be alive or to be loved. I believed that I was a disgusting, shameful person who does not deserve to ever be happy. These are the thoughts I’ve lived with on a daily basis.”

 

[LinekersLegs]

I was remiss in my previous post not mentioning the name of the Miami Herald reporter - Julie K Brown.

Her diligent and emotionally difficult work to expose Epstein and his circle has been superb and directly lead to reopening up of investigations.

Meet Julie K Brown, the woman who brought down Jeffrey Epstein

It was by focusing on his silenced victims, says the dogged Miami Herald reporter, that she was able to help bring the billionaire sex offender to justice

www.theguardian.com

 

[Huyton Layne]

It's amazing that a rich white guy always seems to get a bit of doubt added but these brown grooming gangs should be punished beyond what the law currently allows.

 

[tonyhorne]

“So many young women, myself included, have been criticised for returning to Epstein’s lair even after we knew what he wanted from us. How can you complain about being abused, some have asked, when you could so easily have stayed away? But that stance discounts what many of us had been through before we encountered Epstein, as well as how good he was at spotting girls whose wounds made them vulnerable. Several of us had been molested or raped as children; many of us were poor or even homeless. We were girls who no one cared about, and Epstein pretended to care. A master manipulator, he threw what looked like a lifeline to girls who were drowning. If they wanted to be dancers, he offered dance lessons. If they aspired to be actors, he said he’d help them get roles. And then, he did his worst to them.”

More or less what I said?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

This will be my final reply to you, I assume you climb flag poles, have a fear of brown people and think Ant Middleton is a hero too, you’ve painted yourself as such so don’t shy away from the very real truths you’ve conveyed to everyone here.

You’re describing a trafficked child as someone who simply made “poor decisions” and “got mixed up with the wrong crowd.” That’s not just inaccurate…. a child cannot “choose” to be groomed, trafficked, or sexually abused. That’s not a lapse in judgment; that’s a crime committed against her one which you’ve choosing to seemingly agree with?

The “crowd” you’re referring to wasn’t a group of misguided people, it was a network of the rich and powerful who systematically exploited vulnerable girls, one of whom was trafficked to a man who later paid £12 million to settle the claim against him. Another of her abusers died in custody under federal investigation. Others are serving long sentences. These aren’t coincidences or “naïve choices.” They are consequences because what she said happened did happen and have been proved I’m sure you are one of the fine folks who “does their own research”, so please do it please big man

Meanwhile, the feller you’re defending has been stripped of his royal titles, removed from public duties, and evicted from royal residences by his own family, one of the most powerful(???) institutions in the world. That doesn’t happen because of “decisions.” It happens because the stench of guilt became impossible to ignore I assume, but Tony here wants to ignore it on his little forum posts.

Saying “we don’t know what really happened” is a convenient way to protect your own discomfort, not an honest reflection of the facts. We do know what happened. The courts, the settlements, the convictions, the testimonies they all point to a pattern of abuse that destroyed her while powerful people closed ranks around each other.

Reducing her ordeal to a “cautionary tale” is an insult. The lesson here isn’t about her “choices.” It’s about how easily you’ve excused predators when they’re wealthy, connected, or royal and how quickly it questions a victim when she dared to speak the truth about them, and isn’t it funny the outrage of her abusers suspicious death is so prominent yet her own tragic death is seemingly not, and I pray to God you don’t have a wife or kids who are girls, because that quite frankly sickens me to think you’re a parent who have this view.

Never mind being a blue, a human! you have identified yourself as someone with quite dangerous views tbh.

Brilliant post.

 

[LinekersLegs]

More or less what I said?

To say that was “more or less what I said” is generous to the the point of absurdity.

As @Bryan+ explained “ You’re describing a trafficked child as someone who simply made “poor decisions” and “got mixed up with the wrong crowd.” That’s not just inaccurate…. a child cannot “choose” to be groomed, trafficked, or sexually abused. That’s not a lapse in judgment; that’s a crime committed against her one which you’ve choosing to seemingly agree with? The “crowd” you’re referring to wasn’t a group of misguided people, it was a network of the rich and powerful who systematically exploited vulnerable girls”

A 40+ year old man had sex with underage girls and he did it again and again and again and again. There is exhaustive testimony and evidence and even his own confession. The responsibility for those crimes, both moral and legal, is entirely on him, not due to any actions by his victims. Saville’s victims were not at fault, nor were those abused by catholic priests, how hard is it to say Virginia was not at fault for being raped and trafficked for sex by Epstein?

And as I said in my first post continuing this “the abused made poor decisions” line does not only hurt former victims of abuse, it enables current predators to continue their abuse because their victims feel guilty themselves and at fault and are less likely to report their abuser to justice.

 

[tommye]

And as I said in my first post continuing this “the abused made poor decisions” line does not only hurt former victims of abuse, it enables current predators to continue their abuse because their victims feel guilty themselves and at fault and are less likely to report their abuser to justice.

Also makes him look an absolute wrong'un.

We've only seen/heard a small percentage of what's in those files. I shudder to think what the currently unreleased rest of them contain.

To even begin to try and defend it is as bad as being there.