Where does the problem lie?

[Joey66]

NO PACE in the side!
No creativity
No midfield

 

[TraffordBlue]

Totally disagree.

We have a midtable level side, we're miles off the top 6 but nowhere near as bad as some on here seem to love to make out. Steve Cook, Simon Francis, Adam Smith and Dan Gosling are not better footballers than Keane, Williams, Schneiderlin and Gueye, and yet we set up at Dean Court as if we were playing Barcelona.

Our fans seem to love making out players are much much worse than they actually are. I've seen people suggesting Niasse is the worst striker in the league, despite him having a decent scoring record in Turkey and Russia, and having scored a perfectly respectable 11 goals in 35 games in English football. To add some perspective to this, over the last month we've come up against sides who regularly field Afobe (11 in 60) King (26 in 88) Rodriguez (39 in 148, with only 13 scored since 2014) Ayew (11 in 70) and Andy Carroll (55 in 228). The league also includes players like Berahino who hasn't scored for 2 years, and Shane Long who I believe has now gone 29 games without a goal and has only reached double figures once in 9 years in the Premier League.

Likewise we've got people saying Martina is League One level. He's not great granted, but he's played over 100 games in the Dutch top flight, and now over 50 times for PL sides. He's played in European competition with 3 different clubs. He's nowhere near the level of quality I want to see at Everton, but he's nowhere near as bad as some want to make out.

I agree with a lot of this but not the bit in bold in relation to how the side were performing. We had relegation form before Allardyce was appointed and the grave situation we were in under Koeman and Unsworth has been swept under the carpet by quite a few of our fans. I also think that whilst a lot of people make out some players are far worse than they actually are, a lot also overrate our better players. We had 1 top class player last season in Lukaku who would get in the top 6 sides, hence his move to Man United, and I also think Gueye would potentially have got in some of the top 6 sides last season too. This season, only Pickford is in the same bracket.

Regarding where the problem lies, there are several. The number 1 issue is that Koeman neglected 2 key areas of the team that needed to be strengthened which were up front and at left back. Martina is a limited player and is poor with his left foot and although he's done a decent enough job in various games, he's one of the main culprits holding the side back with his suspect defending and inability to go forward. Likewise, the striker situation has cost us as you simply cannot let a 25 goal a season striker leave and fail to replace him and rely mainly on an inexperienced 20 year old who has a poor scoring record at this level.

We do have some good players but there are quite a few big issues with this team that need sorting out. The older players need to be moved on or relegated to the role of 'last resort squad player'. If we have the ambition we're supposed to we also have to be making statement signings from more prestigious clubs like Arsenal. It worked out with Pickford from Sunderland but we made 3 so called 'statements' from Sunderland, Swansea and Burnley. One of which failed at a top 6 club in Spurs. We won't bridge the gap with so many of those type of signings.

 

[Titus Bramble]

The fact that martina and Niasse were in our starting line up against Utd is all you need to know

Our ‘incomplete’ summer transfer window has really made things difficult. I say incomplete because we did make some good signings, but we’re missing players who knit it all together.

 

[Matthew mcdonnell]

missed walsh off there too

 

[Lanolin]

I agree with a lot of this but not the bit in bold in relation to how the side were performing. We had relegation form before Allardyce was appointed and the grave situation we were in under Koeman and Unsworth has been swept under the carpet by quite a few of our fans. I also think that whilst a lot of people make out some players are far worse than they actually are, a lot also overrate our better players. We had 1 top class player last season in Lukaku who would get in the top 6 sides, hence his move to Man United, and I also think Gueye would potentially have got in some of the top 6 sides last season too. This season, only Pickford is in the same bracket.

Regarding where the problem lies, there are several. The number 1 issue is that Koeman neglected 2 key areas of the team that needed to be strengthened which were up front and at left back. Martina is a limited player and is poor with his left foot and although he's done a decent enough job in various games, he's one of the main culprits holding the side back with his suspect defending and inability to go forward. Likewise, the striker situation has cost us as you simply cannot let a 25 goal a season striker leave and fail to replace him and rely mainly on an inexperienced 20 year old who has a poor scoring record at this level.

We do have some good players but there are quite a few big issues with this team that need sorting out. The older players need to be moved on or relegated to the role of 'last resort squad player'. If we have the ambition we're supposed to we also have to be making statement signings from more prestigious clubs like Arsenal. It worked out with Pickford from Sunderland but we made 3 so called 'statements' from Sunderland, Swansea and Burnley. One of which failed at a top 6 club in Spurs. We won't bridge the gap with so many of those type of signings.

Yeah I agree with a lot of that, but I disagree with your rebuttal.

As I've said before we honestly weren't showing relegation form. That's not sweeping anything under the carpet or rewriting history or anything, it's just an actual analysis of the points we were picking up in relation to other teams. When Allardyce came in 8 games ago we had 15 points on the board, two teams have only got 16 now! Even now when we're in really bad form (comparable points and results wise to anything that went before Allardyce arrived by the way) we've taken just 5 points from our last 5 games and yet SEVEN teams are on worse runs, with one other having taken the same amount. I posted a similar thing a few weeks ago, comparing the points we were picking up immediately prior to Allardyce's arrival, at that point there were even more teams in worse form than us. I'm not saying things weren't bad, they were/are, but if we deal in facts rather than gut feelings, we were not showing relegation form.

 

[OneTrueLegend]

We are playing for draws at the moment, the last 2 games we have started with 3 holding midfielders, then looked to change it after about 60 minutes and Be more attacking.

Hopefully once we have a couple of strikers we will change things and not be quite so defensive. But part of the issue I think has been about protecting the back 4. We definitely need an additional left back and could do with a Center back as well

 

[TraffordBlue]

Yeah I agree with a lot of that, but I disagree with your rebuttal.

As I've said before we honestly weren't showing relegation form. That's not sweeping anything under the carpet or rewriting history or anything, it's just an actual analysis of the points we were picking up in relation to other teams. When Allardyce came in 8 games ago we had 15 points on the board, two teams have only got 16 now! Even now when we're in really bad form (comparable points and results wise to anything that went before Allardyce arrived by the way) we've taken just 5 points from our last 5 games and yet SEVEN teams are on worse runs, with one other having taken the same amount. I posted a similar thing a few weeks ago, comparing the points we were picking up immediately prior to Allardyce's arrival, at that point there were even more teams in worse form than us. I'm not saying things weren't bad, they were/are, but if we deal in facts rather than gut feelings, we were not showing relegation form.

The decision to appoint Allardyce was made by Moshiri before the West Ham game was played and at that point we had only gained 12 points from 39 available, with the most (possibly 2nd most?) goals conceded in the entire league. We had 1 win away in 11 months which is 100% relegation away form as well.

After the Southampton defeat we had lost 5 games in 7 under the caretaker manager.

12 points from 39 works out at around 30% of the points available. If that is applied to a whole season (114) that would equate to 35 points which is 5 below the generally accepted total of 40 needed to stay up. Given how poor some of the other teams are we may not have gone down, but things weren't changing under Koeman or Unsworth and the results proved that we were in real trouble.

 

[jceverton]

The decision to appoint Allardyce was made by Moshiri before the West Ham game was played and at that point we had only gained 12 points from 39 available, with the most (possibly 2nd most?) goals conceded in the entire league. We had 1 win away in 11 months which is 100% relegation away form as well.

After the Southampton defeat we had lost 5 games in 7 under the caretaker manager.

12 points from 39 works out at around 30% of the points available. If that is applied to a whole season (114) that would equate to 35 points which is 5 below the generally accepted total of 40 needed to stay up. Given how poor some of the other teams are we may not have gone down, but things weren't changing under Koeman or Unsworth and the results proved that we were in real trouble.

Sorry but you can't cherry pick, we got 1.4ppg under Unsworth and we are getting 1.5ppg under Allardyce. That would leave us with 1 less point than we have. Yes we were conceding goals but we had picked up and started scoring goals. Under Unsworth we averaged 2 goals a game, we just needed to get the balance right between attack and defence, which we started to do against West Ham. We are now starting to let goals in and not score them again. I'm sure by the end of January that Allardyce will have got a better balance on this front but we weren't going down before he came and I don't think we are going down now. By the way Bournemouth had gone 9 games without a win before they beat us, they were in terrible form.

 

[Lanolin]

The decision to appoint Allardyce was made by Moshiri before the West Ham game was played and at that point we had only gained 12 points from 39 available, with the most (possibly 2nd most?) goals conceded in the entire league. We had 1 win away in 11 months which is 100% relegation away form as well.

After the Southampton defeat we had lost 5 games in 7 under the caretaker manager.

12 points from 39 works out at around 30% of the points available. If that is applied to a whole season (114) that would equate to 35 points which is 5 below the generally accepted total of 40 needed to stay up. Given how poor some of the other teams are we may not have gone down, but things weren't changing under Koeman or Unsworth and the results proved that we were in real trouble.

Nothing you've said there refutes my point though. Sacking Koeman was the right thing to do, Unsworth wasn't the right man for the job, you're preaching to the converted. Doesn't mean we were going down though, which is all I'm saying.

Even if we leave out the West Ham game (which seems unfair to me but I understand that a lot of people seem to want to do it as it helps to further their point) Unsworth was going at a point a game, 4 from 4. We've only got 2 points from the last 4 but now we're not in real trouble because Sam has saved us. Bizarre logic if you look at it objectively, but I suppose most football fans aren't known for their ability to do that.

 

[jceverton]

It lies in having an extremely poor technical structure at the Club. Without a thorough root-and-branch review, new players and/or coaches will only give periodic ups and downs.

We need expertise throughout instead of the boys club philosophy we currently have. Define a set way of playing and then tailor the squad to suit, binning off those that are unsuitable. This will allow the scouting network to be more focused on what is expected. The medical and fitness side have been average at best for years so improve them all too.

End point has to be a place where changing coaching staff reults in minimal stress and risk but this requires a proper DoF in place and very defined roles and responsibilities. Only coaches that can actually coach the team individually and collectively to be hired. If they don't achieve success bin them off too.

Such a change must be driven by the board.

This is it in a nutshell. Unfortunately I see absolutely no sign of this from Moshiri.

 

[Toffeelover]

Yeah I agree with a lot of that, but I disagree with your rebuttal.

As I've said before we honestly weren't showing relegation form. That's not sweeping anything under the carpet or rewriting history or anything, it's just an actual analysis of the points we were picking up in relation to other teams. When Allardyce came in 8 games ago we had 15 points on the board, two teams have only got 16 now! Even now when we're in really bad form (comparable points and results wise to anything that went before Allardyce arrived by the way) we've taken just 5 points from our last 5 games and yet SEVEN teams are on worse runs, with one other having taken the same amount. I posted a similar thing a few weeks ago, comparing the points we were picking up immediately prior to Allardyce's arrival, at that point there were even more teams in worse form than us. I'm not saying things weren't bad, they were/are, but if we deal in facts rather than gut feelings, we were not showing relegation form.

Two of those games Baggies and Bournemouth could have yielded more points with better team selection, subbing and tactics. With a bit of enterprise the points could have been IMO 9.

 

[Lanolin]

Two of those games Baggies and Bournemouth could have yielded more points with better team selection, subbing and tactics. With a bit of enterprise the points could have been IMO 9.

Completely agree.

 

[jceverton]

Two of those games Baggies and Bournemouth could have yielded more points with better team selection, subbing and tactics. With a bit of enterprise the points could have been IMO 9.

I agree but we approached those games like we were in the bottom 3 and shipping goals for fun with no end in sight. It was badly misjudged and somewhat surprising for an experienced manager. If Unsworth had done that he would of been absolutely slaughtered.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Sorry but you can't cherry pick, we got 1.4ppg under Unsworth and we are getting 1.5ppg under Allardyce. That would leave us with 1 less point than we have. Yes we were conceding goals but we had picked up and started scoring goals. Under Unsworth we averaged 2 goals a game, we just needed to get the balance right between attack and defence, which we started to do against West Ham. We are now starting to let goals in and not score them again. I'm sure by the end of January that Allardyce will have got a better balance on this front but we weren't going down before he came and I don't think we are going down now. By the way Bournemouth had gone 9 games without a win before they beat us, they were in terrible form.

I could also argue that you're cherry picking as you have left out the 3 Cup defeats under his stint. 2 of which were pathetic defeats where we conceded 8 goals and he bizarrely opted to play our £45m signing up front and lump balls to him.

The West Ham game was a one off. Fair play to Unsworth for getting that victory but 5 defeats in 8 was a poor return from him and there were no signs before that game that things were about to change.

The Southampton defeat was one of the most abject displays i've ever seen from an Everton side. Truly pathetic and the players needed someone to come in to get them back to basics which the new manager has done on the whole.

 

[davek]

Interesting angle Dave, and definitely agree with most of it. One thing to add though is that when we bought Pickford, Keane, Klassen, Siggy there were a hell of a lot of people in the game saying we had bought extremely well with top players. Many were saying we were the best players in the transfer market. So if the informed think they were good, and let's face it, all of these are top players - I would be asking the question less on recruitment and a lot more on what was done with the players to destroy them so quickly. Obviously the balance is a massive problem and the biggest tragedy was no striker. Had we have had one yesterday, we could have been 2-0 up at half-time and it's a different game.

They defo haven't been coached well, especially Keane. But the summer compliments over our business done was down to the speed of itr, not so much the bargaining and negotiating over fees...which were generally seen as inflated.