Have you ever crossed the road without waiting for the green man? I'm pretty sure a cyclist is allowed to dismount at red lights and push their bike across an intersection, so why not make it a bit easier for them?
VicRoads (Aust.) propose cyclists should be 'allowed' to run red lights
- Thread starter degsy
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Indeed. As I said above, common sense is needed I think. A few years back I got clobbered by a copper for stopping at a light, waiting for all the pedestrians to cross and then rolling off at walking speed. Letter of the law I'd jumped a light, but there was not a single soul put at risk.
From cycling in London, my biggest (semi-regular) issue is pedestrians trying to cross the road in between stationary vehicles. They do this pretty often, despite there usually being pedestrian crossings 20m up the road. Should they get fined too? What about if they cross on a 'red man'?
Just needs a bit of thought for your fellow road user. I've mentioned before about the Dutch living streets thing, where they remove all road signs. Safety improves massively because it forces road users to think what they're doing.
'Think' as with common sense thing you mentioned, are you crediting people with more common sense than they actually have or am I crediting them with less...I for one am not impressed with the LCD / common / sense quotient of the average person in ( or in this case on ) the street.
For road users a red light means stop, even if there is no body within a mile of you, which is why some places have a flashing orange in the middle of the night, which allows you to treat the junction as 'uncontrolled' proceed with caution
For the pedestrian the red man means stop because the lights, being green and thus the traffic can proceed with caution, ( green does not mean go ) are not in your favour
The green man Indicated the lights to stop traffic are in the pedestrians favour
Red light control road traffic
The green man indicates to pedestrians it is 'safe' to cross, always assuming some cyclist is not treating it as a give way sign.
The red light is NOT open to interpretation
fit filter lights for a left turn when clear ( UK etc ) by all means
But until that happens STOP means STOP... It's clear and unequivocal.
(we all know?) what will happen is some smart a*** in a car will decide if he can go I can go....= splat
Probably somewhere in the middle
I suppose I'm coloured by the situation in London, where there seem to be traffic lights every 50 metres or so. Seems rather excessive, and doesn't stop there being accidents. Most cycling fatalities appear to be heavy goods vehicles turning left and crushing a cyclist on their inside.As for fatalities in general, there are something like 1500 people killed on the roads every year in Britain. Of those, the breakdown is roughly as follows.
Speeding
Around 400 people a year are killed in crashes in which someone exceeds the speed limit or drives too fast for the conditions.
Drink Driving
Around 280 people die a year in crashes in which someone was over the legal drink drive limit.
Seat Belt Wearing
Around 300 lives each year could be saved if everyone always wore their seat belt.
Careless Driving
Around 300 deaths a year involve someone being "careless, reckless or in a hurry", and a further 125 involve "aggressive driving".
At-work
Around one third of fatal and serious road crashes involve someone who was at work.
Inexperience
More than 400 people are killed in crashes involving young car drivers aged 17 to 24 years, every year, including over 150 young drivers, 90 passengers and more than 170 other road users.
Failed to Look Properly
40% of road crashes involve someone who 'failed to look properly'.
Loss of Control
One third of fatal crashes involved 'loss of control' of a vehicle.
Failed to Judge Other Person's Path/Speed
One in five crashes involve a road user failing to judge another person's path or speed.
So it would seem more likely to actually save lives to have more speed cameras than it would to worry about a few red light jumpers, who may annoy motorists but actually do very little harm?
As a comparison btw:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study - just 2% of all accidents involving cyclists are the result of them 'breaking the law', and none of those resulted in a fatality.
I suspect there are many more injuries and deaths caused by motorists jumping red lights than there are cyclists doing so.
As anecdotal evidence, I've been knocked off three times whilst riding in London. Two were by vehicles (1 white van, 1 bus) overtaking me and then turning left on me. The other was when a car pulled out of a junction straight into my path (a bus driver on his way to work as it happens). I've also been hit by two pedestrians who walked out from in between cars into the bike lane, but they were just bumps, nothing serious.
In all three incidents, nothing happened to the driver at all. Indeed, for two of them the driver didn't even stop. When the odds are so heavily weighted in the motorists favour (you're not going to hurt them by crashing are you?), you tend to develop a pretty good radar for what's safe and what isn't, because your wellbeing depends upon it.
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Probably somewhere in the middle
As for fatalities in general, there are something like 1500 people killed on the roads every year in Britain. Of those, the breakdown is roughly as follows.
Speeding
Around 400 people a year are killed in crashes in which someone exceeds the speed limit or drives too fast for the conditions.
Drink Driving
Around 280 people die a year in crashes in which someone was over the legal drink drive limit.
Seat Belt Wearing
Around 300 lives each year could be saved if everyone always wore their seat belt.
Careless Driving
Around 300 deaths a year involve someone being "careless, reckless or in a hurry", and a further 125 involve "aggressive driving".
At-work
Around one third of fatal and serious road crashes involve someone who was at work.
Inexperience
More than 400 people are killed in crashes involving young car drivers aged 17 to 24 years, every year, including over 150 young drivers, 90 passengers and more than 170 other road users.
Failed to Look Properly
40% of road crashes involve someone who 'failed to look properly'.
Loss of Control
One third of fatal crashes involved 'loss of control' of a vehicle.
Failed to Judge Other Person's Path/Speed
One in five crashes involve a road user failing to judge another person's path or speed.
So it would seem more likely to actually save lives to have more speed cameras than it would to worry about a few red light jumpers, who may annoy motorists but actually do very little harm?
As a comparison btw:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study - just 2% of all accidents involving cyclists are the result of them 'breaking the law', and none of those resulted in a fatality.
I suspect there are many more injuries and deaths caused by motorists jumping red lights than there are cyclists doing so.
As anecdotal evidence, I've been knocked off three times whilst riding in London. Two were by vehicles (1 white van, 1 bus) overtaking me and then turning left on me. The other was when a car pulled out of a junction straight into my path (a bus driver on his way to work as it happens). I've also been hit by two pedestrians who walked out from in between cars into the bike lane, but they were just bumps, nothing serious.
In all three incidents, nothing happened to the driver at all. Indeed, for two of them the driver didn't even stop. When the odds are so heavily weighted in the motorists favour (you're not going to hurt them by crashing are you?), you tend to develop a pretty good radar for what's safe and what isn't, because your wellbeing depends upon it.
40% - failed to look properly, somehow I don't think that ' allowing cyclists to run red lights' is going to lower this total.
well thought out and argued points on both sides.
So will file this under agree to differ.
I think the biggest problem is people being selfish, and it seems to increase 10 fold when they are in a car. While it is not right, the best preventative measure is still the small vehicle gives way to the larger vehicle. No cyclist ever won a battle with a d1ckhead in a landcruiser
Degs62
Player Valuation 10"
Allowing any road user to not obey the traffic rules is a recipe for disaster. There are hundreds of vehicle drivers on the Gold Coast who 'jump' red lights every day in addition to the cyclists who blatantly ignore road rules, I'm a firm believer that all traffic signals should be equipped with red light cameras.
If the trend is allowed to continue, as Vic Roads seem to think would be a good idea then I can't wait for the first instance of a cyclist running into the side of a car becuase they are allowed to ignore red lights. Poor car diver whose insurance takes a hit becuase there is no need for cyclists to have insurance.
Stupidest idea I've heard for a long time.
If the trend is allowed to continue, as Vic Roads seem to think would be a good idea then I can't wait for the first instance of a cyclist running into the side of a car becuase they are allowed to ignore red lights. Poor car diver whose insurance takes a hit becuase there is no need for cyclists to have insurance.
Stupidest idea I've heard for a long time.
derek's rule* thumbs nose at Bruce Wayne
Multis aren't allowed, you know that don't you? I'm watching 'you two'.
On yer 'kin bike
McBain
Player Valuation: £80m
People in Bikes in Traffic are super, super annoying, and due to the historical nature and complete lack of combustable speed have no place slowing down my Motor Car with your slow lane hogging contraptions.
You people desperarely need some kind of circular track to ride around until your muscles are all worn out and the last thing you want to do is complain.
Or buy a 'Motorized' Conveyance and keep up please.
You people desperarely need some kind of circular track to ride around until your muscles are all worn out and the last thing you want to do is complain.
Or buy a 'Motorized' Conveyance and keep up please.
Average speed of traffic in central London is 10mph. Dare say a granny on a Boris bike would go quicker than that
McBain
Player Valuation: £80m
Average speed of traffic in central London is 10mph. Dare say a granny on a Boris bike would go quicker than that
You get on the Boggabri to Gundawindi Straight and maaaaaate. The last thing you want to be on is a bicycle.
The Cowboy
Player Valuation: £60m
I believe anything that helps separate cars and bikes at junctions is a good thing. Give cyclists the ability to hop the red light when its safe. If they want to be stupid about it, they'll pay the price. If its done sensibly with caution, there should be no impact to anyone.
An example - lights near me are car-activated (those diagonal lines on the floor). I can roll up on my bike and be waiting for ages until a car comes up behind me to activate the lights. Meanwhile, no traffic comes from the other directions. And I'm expected to wait there?! No chance.
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