TTIP

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Is that the myth buster stuff you refer to? Think that has been covered before, nothing in it other than slant and propaganda, certainly not enough to be a rebuttal. Would anything else be expected?

And I would use the term deceitful rather than lying, my earlier post alludes to the methodology, and yes, on that scale.

Think it isn't possible for that scale to be organised? Think that was the case over Libor and sub prime too? Each of those cases in question used rebuttals when first challenged.

I've no doubt that fraud on a huge scale is possible, I'm just not sure given the secrecy over this how you can be sure that this is taking place. As I've said dozens of times now, you have to believe (in the religious faith based sense) in one lot of 'propaganda' versus another.

I'm no fan of government folks at all, but I can't for the life of me see the motivation for EU officials to do the things that they're accused of doing. What do they get out of it?
 

I've no doubt that fraud on a huge scale is possible, I'm just not sure given the secrecy over this how you can be sure that this is taking place. As I've said dozens of times now, you have to believe (in the religious faith based sense) in one lot of 'propaganda' versus another.

I'm no fan of government folks at all, but I can't for the life of me see the motivation for EU officials to do the things that they're accused of doing. What do they get out of it?

The revolving door principle applies.
 
From edge's link:

"Both European and US officials, backed by powerful business lobbies, will be pressing for maximum protection for corporations against legislative or regulatory interference into their “rights” to profit from transatlantic trade and investment."

All of this in great secrecy. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to be mistrustful of corporations playing hardball behind closed doors with politicians having their ears bent (and palms greased) by incessant lobbying.
 

Here's a quote from 38 Degrees yesterday:

Damning government report on TTIP


Fresh off the press today is the government’s business report on the EU-US trade deal, TTIP, and its potential impacts on the UK. It finds that TTIP will have little economic and political benefit, even going as far as to say that it will pose ‘meaningful costs’ to the UK. These damning conclusions come with no surprise, and reveal that TTIP is ‘likely to provide the UK with few or no benefits’.

Here are the key findings;

(1) There is little reason to think that an EU-US investment chapter will provide the UK with significant economic benefits. No two countries in the world exchange more investment than the UK and the US, and there is no evidence that US or UK investors view either country as suffering from the kinds of political risks against which investment treaties are supposed to protect. Moreover, existing evidence suggests that the presence of an EU-US investment chapter is highly unlikely to encourage investment above and beyond what would otherwise take place. US investors have generally not taken much notice of investment treaties in the past when deciding where, and how much, to invest abroad – even when dealing with far more questionable jurisdictions than the UK.

(2) There is little reason to think that an EU-US investment chapter will provide the UK with significant political benefits. The political relationship between Washington and Whitehall is exceptionally strong, and we are aware of no evidence that it is vulnerable to a meaningful risk of investor-state disputes that would become undesirably “politicized” in the absence of an investment treaty. Secondly, we find it unlikely that an EU-US agreement would make significant negotiating partners – like India and China – more or less willing to agree to an investment treaty with the EU. Finally, it is unclear whether the US is particularly keen on an investment protection chapter with the EU, which means the Commission may not be able to use such a chapter as an effective ‘bargaining chip’ in other trade and/or investment negotiations with Washington. However, these are all issues that BIS might wish to explore in further detail.

(3) There is some reason to expect an EU-US investment chapter will impose meaningful economic costs on the UK. Based on Canada’s experience under NAFTA, we would expect an EU-US investment chapter to be regularly invoked by US investors against the UK for governmental actions that would normally not be challengeable under UK law. While we would not expect the UK to lose many of these cases on the merits, the UK will necessarily incur costs to defend itself. Legal costs in investment treaty claims are substantial. The UK government may also find itself subject to pressure to settle some claims, even when there are reasonable prospects of successfully defending the claim on the merits. Finally, given the uncertain meaning of key elements of international investment law, it is possible that the UK would occasionally lose some arbitrations on the merits and be liable for significant damage awards.

(4) There is some reason to expect an EU-US investment chapter to impose meaningful political costs on the UK. Under investment treaties similar to a likely EU-US investment chapter, US investors have brought claims that raise potentially controversial questions. Should US investors bring similar claims against the UK, this will increase the chances that a particular dispute could provoke a backlash against the EU-US economic agreement as a whole or, perhaps more broadly, investor-state arbitration as a governing institution.

Follow this link to read the full report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...of-an-eu-usa-investment-protection-treaty.pdf
 
Here's a quote from 38 Degrees yesterday:

Damning government report on TTIP


Fresh off the press today is the government’s business report on the EU-US trade deal, TTIP, and its potential impacts on the UK. It finds that TTIP will have little economic and political benefit, even going as far as to say that it will pose ‘meaningful costs’ to the UK. These damning conclusions come with no surprise, and reveal that TTIP is ‘likely to provide the UK with few or no benefits’.

Here are the key findings;

(1) There is little reason to think that an EU-US investment chapter will provide the UK with significant economic benefits. No two countries in the world exchange more investment than the UK and the US, and there is no evidence that US or UK investors view either country as suffering from the kinds of political risks against which investment treaties are supposed to protect. Moreover, existing evidence suggests that the presence of an EU-US investment chapter is highly unlikely to encourage investment above and beyond what would otherwise take place. US investors have generally not taken much notice of investment treaties in the past when deciding where, and how much, to invest abroad – even when dealing with far more questionable jurisdictions than the UK.

(2) There is little reason to think that an EU-US investment chapter will provide the UK with significant political benefits. The political relationship between Washington and Whitehall is exceptionally strong, and we are aware of no evidence that it is vulnerable to a meaningful risk of investor-state disputes that would become undesirably “politicized” in the absence of an investment treaty. Secondly, we find it unlikely that an EU-US agreement would make significant negotiating partners – like India and China – more or less willing to agree to an investment treaty with the EU. Finally, it is unclear whether the US is particularly keen on an investment protection chapter with the EU, which means the Commission may not be able to use such a chapter as an effective ‘bargaining chip’ in other trade and/or investment negotiations with Washington. However, these are all issues that BIS might wish to explore in further detail.

(3) There is some reason to expect an EU-US investment chapter will impose meaningful economic costs on the UK. Based on Canada’s experience under NAFTA, we would expect an EU-US investment chapter to be regularly invoked by US investors against the UK for governmental actions that would normally not be challengeable under UK law. While we would not expect the UK to lose many of these cases on the merits, the UK will necessarily incur costs to defend itself. Legal costs in investment treaty claims are substantial. The UK government may also find itself subject to pressure to settle some claims, even when there are reasonable prospects of successfully defending the claim on the merits. Finally, given the uncertain meaning of key elements of international investment law, it is possible that the UK would occasionally lose some arbitrations on the merits and be liable for significant damage awards.

(4) There is some reason to expect an EU-US investment chapter to impose meaningful political costs on the UK. Under investment treaties similar to a likely EU-US investment chapter, US investors have brought claims that raise potentially controversial questions. Should US investors bring similar claims against the UK, this will increase the chances that a particular dispute could provoke a backlash against the EU-US economic agreement as a whole or, perhaps more broadly, investor-state arbitration as a governing institution.

Follow this link to read the full report:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...of-an-eu-usa-investment-protection-treaty.pdf
A tick in the Vote Leave column? Or is this something unrelated? Didn't really read the article properly tbh.
 
A tick in the Vote Leave column? Or is this something unrelated? Didn't really read the article properly tbh.
No sure about its relation to Brexit. Tory MEP's have been whipped into voting en-bloc for TTIP at every stage i've seen, so if they are still in 'power' post Brexit, they would still be keen I would assume.
TTIP was Obama's 'thing' and he wanted it completed before Christmas gone, so perhaps that sheds a light on his public address the other day.
I am convinced, however, that signing up to an ISDS agreement is a FAR bigger issue than 'Brexit', and has far more grave implications for society, ours, or more generally.
 
No sure about its relation to Brexit. Tory MEP's have been whipped into voting en-bloc for TTIP at every stage i've seen, so if they are still in 'power' post Brexit, they would still be keen I would assume.
TTIP was Obama's 'thing' and he wanted it completed before Christmas gone, so perhaps that sheds a light on his public address the other day.
I am convinced, however, that signing up to an ISDS agreement is a FAR bigger issue than 'Brexit', and has far more grave implications for society, ours, or more generally.
But if this is a deal between the EU and the US with little benefit to the UK, is that not an argument to suggest that leaving the EU would avoid this agreement?
 
Prima facie, yes. However, considering Europe's divided on accepting TTIP and one of the major proponents for it are our Tories, it's possible, post-Brexit, that Europe throw it out (without our government lobbying for it), and you just know what the first thing on the table during independant trade negotiations will be, and it will be the Tories lobbied by Corporations that wanted it in the first place desperately negotiating.

What do you think?

But if this is a deal between the EU and the US with little benefit to the UK, is that not an argument to suggest that leaving the EU would avoid this agreement?
 

But if this is a deal between the EU and the US with little benefit to the UK, is that not an argument to suggest that leaving the EU would avoid this agreement?

The agreement is Europe wide, the purpose is to create regional trading blocs sharing identical platforms. On business terms it is purposeful for streamlining and is sold as practical to the public.

The danger, or the con, is that it eradicates cultural aspects of individual peoples, turning them into de facto 'consumers' singularly. The purpose would be to just produce and consume for profit as opposed to human benefit.

It then further disintegrates democracy as accountability for corporations evaporates as it can then supercede governments by allowing a due diligence defence of profit seeking. At any cost. The devil is as they say in the detail, but moreso in the intent.

A similar attempt years ago is better at displaying the intent, the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, MAI to google, which was blatant and obvious. It was defeated. They have changed the wording and between then and now implemented regulations allowing this TTIP to proceed and when it does it just all slots together.

This is part of global marketing and not just UK/US, it has been promoted as that for the benefit of the Remain campaign.
 
Some interesting reading.
http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/05/ttip-leak-reveals-draconian-reading-rooms-secret-documents/

Earlier in the year an EU ombudsman published a damning report on the transparency of the negotiations, pointing out that there is little or no access to US proposals or to details on how corporate lobbyists are seeking to influence talks. There is also massive secrecy around the so-called “consolidated texts” that will form the treaty itself.

The European public won’t have access to these documents until after the treaty has been concluded – effectively too late. And currently only 40 out of 751 MEPs (just 5.3%) have access to consolidated texts, with just 14 (1.9%) having access to all of them, according to an insider in Brussels who informed War on Want.

Currently for an MEP to see key TTIP documents, they must book an appointment to visit one of the Brussels or US embassy reading rooms. They must then sign a 14-page non-disclosure agreement and agree to draconian security measures, such as handing in all electronic equipment and being accompanied at all times.
 
Some interesting reading.
http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/05/ttip-leak-reveals-draconian-reading-rooms-secret-documents/

Earlier in the year an EU ombudsman published a damning report on the transparency of the negotiations, pointing out that there is little or no access to US proposals or to details on how corporate lobbyists are seeking to influence talks. There is also massive secrecy around the so-called “consolidated texts” that will form the treaty itself.

The European public won’t have access to these documents until after the treaty has been concluded – effectively too late. And currently only 40 out of 751 MEPs (just 5.3%) have access to consolidated texts, with just 14 (1.9%) having access to all of them, according to an insider in Brussels who informed War on Want.

Currently for an MEP to see key TTIP documents, they must book an appointment to visit one of the Brussels or US embassy reading rooms. They must then sign a 14-page non-disclosure agreement and agree to draconian security measures, such as handing in all electronic equipment and being accompanied at all times.

I am no fan of these trade deals, but SENSATIONALISM abound!!!

There is nothing "draconian' about being escorted and made to surrender electronics.
 
I am no fan of these trade deals, but SENSATIONALISM abound!!!

There is nothing "draconian' about being escorted and made to surrender electronics.
But why let so few access the detail? Surely all meps should be able to see what they're signing up to?
 
But why let so few access the detail? Surely all meps should be able to see what they're signing up to?

They have done the same thing with the TPPA. They don't want you to know what your govenment is agreeing to. Such gems like now corporations can sue countries (so for instance, it opens up stuff like Philip Morris suing Aus/NZ for requiring plain cigarette packaging, with no logos anything).

I believe the attitude is somewhat 'Just shut up and sign the paper'
 

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