TTIP

[magicjuan]

Thats a US-Asia trade deal. Nothing to do with the us.

Like I said. People are acting like the EU negotiators are incompetent. They're not.

They're going to force the US to adopt our safety standards (via equivalent laws). That will benefit the US. Increase trade and reduce duplication.

Like I said. Stop listening to the lobbyists and think for yourselves.

For that to be so, the negotiators would have to be working in the interests of the public, they're not they are working for corporations. The idea behind this is to bypass regulatory bodies, cut through bureaucracy, and ignore obligations and responsibility.

 

[Basil Fawlty]

Thats a US-Asia trade deal. Nothing to do with the us.

Like I said. People are acting like the EU negotiators are incompetent. They're not.

They're going to force the US to adopt our safety standards (via equivalent laws). That will benefit the US. Increase trade and reduce duplication.

Like I said. Stop listening to the lobbyists and think for yourselves.

I think people are concerned that it allows corporations the right to sue governments that impede their right to make profits. For example Bolivia being sued for objecting to 90% of its ground water being contaminated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/when-corporations-sue-governments.html?_r=0

Also the secret courts

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/04/us-trade-deal-full-frontal-assault-on-democracy

I doubt it's just senseless scaremongering as you suggest. People have wised up to the fact, as pointed out by MagicJuan, this is nothing more than a partial reintroduction of the much vaunted Multilateral Trade Agreement, and suspect that rather than the US having to adopt our higher standards in health and safety etc, we will have to reduce ours to their level in order to become "competitive". We all know Cameron would love to do just that as he is in favour of taking us out of the Human Rights Act on grounds of it affecting our ability to effectively compete.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ge-scrap-human-rights-act-civil-rights-groups

 

[bizzaro]

I think people are concerned that it allows corporations the right to sue governments that impede their right to make profits. For example Bolivia being sued for objecting to 90% of its ground water being contaminated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/when-corporations-sue-governments.html?_r=0

Also the secret courts

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/04/us-trade-deal-full-frontal-assault-on-democracy

I doubt it's just senseless scaremongering as you suggest. People have wished up to the fact, as pointed out by MagicJuan, this is nothing more than a partial reintroduction of the much vaunted Multilateral Trade Agreement, and suspect that rather than the US having to adopt our higher standards in health and safety etc, we will have to reduce ours to their level in order to become "competitive". We all know Cameron would love to do just that as he is in favour of taking us out of the Human Rights Act on grounds of it affecting our ability to effectively compete.

You cannot compare some of those South American countries to most of the EU.

Look at whats happening in Argentina right now. There is enormous corruption and very poor judicial system. With very high levels of corruption.

Compare that to Europe.

The situation is entirely different.

The negotiator said in the article I linked up. The EU has made it very clear it will NOT compromise on existing safety and environmental laws.

 

[peteblue]

In the politics thread I have commented extensively on the ISDS provisions and their dangers.

ISDS is Investor to State Dispute Settlement not the International Sheep Dog Society.

Does @Kurt know about this International Sheep Dog Society.......

 

[orchard]

Hahaha, it's going to be harsh on your eyes when/if you get close to the entrance of Plato's Cave lid

You cannot compare some of those South American countries to most of the EU.

Look at whats happening in Argentina right now. There is enormous corruption and very poor judicial system. With very high levels of corruption.

Compare that to Europe.

The situation is entirely different.

The negotiator said in the article I linked up. The EU has made it very clear it will NOT compromise on existing safety and environmental laws.

 

[orchard]

Just to let everyone know, there's going to be anti TTIP canvassing organised by 38 Degrees on Saturday the 22nd. If you are against it, please make sure you get involved if you possibly can, there are 350 events in the UK already, and if you don't have one near you, they'll send you flyers and give you help in setting one up.

https://home.38degrees.org.uk/ttip-day-action-help-page/

Time's running out for being a passive objector, and it's mainly Conservative MEP's that are voting as a block in the UK to push this through

 

[orchard]

I do find it strange that so few show interest in this or know much about it. The canvassing for signatures and improving awareness is Nation-wide this Saturday, please get involved if you can.

Just to give a taster, this treaty is being pushed through hastily (it's hoped to be finalised before the end of the year) and in almost complete secrecy, with the media offering very little exposure. If/when it gets passed, we will lose what's left of our political self-determination in favour of Corporate interests which will be decided in the US behind closed doors. Say goodbye to the NHS, Unions, control over food standards, water collection, environmental controls. Say hello to fracking, GMO's, wage deflation (probably), and lots of other things you'd rather not experience but will be unable to even have an input.

Here's a reasonable oversight:

http://media.waronwant.org/sites/de...date.pdf?_ga=1.35042017.1798252873.1439570027

Thanks for your time

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I do find it strange that so few show interest in this or know much about it. The canvassing for signatures and improving awareness is Nation-wide this Saturday, please get involved if you can.

Just to give a taster, this treaty is being pushed through hastily (it's hoped to be finalised before the end of the year) and in almost complete secrecy, with the media offering very little exposure. If/when it gets passed, we will lose what's left of our political self-determination in favour of Corporate interests which will be decided in the US behind closed doors. Say goodbye to the NHS, Unions, control over food standards, water collection, environmental controls. Say hello to fracking, GMO's, wage deflation (probably), and lots of other things you'd rather not experience but will be unable to even have an input.

Here's a reasonable oversight:

http://media.waronwant.org/sites/default/files/TTIP booklet for RLS, 2015 update.pdf?_ga=1.35042017.1798252873.1439570027

Thanks for your time

What I don't understand is why people are so certain that the information the EU have published about the negotiations is so full of lies and that people are being hoodwinked over this. On what basis are those claims being made?

I'm certainly no fan of big government either but much of the TTIP stuff stinks of conspiracy theories.

 

[orchard]

What I don't understand is why people are so certain that the information the EU have published about the negotiations is so full of lies and that people are being hoodwinked over this. On what basis are those claims being made?

I'm certainly no fan of big government either but much of the TTIP stuff stinks of conspiracy theories.

You're right Bruce, it is a conspiracy. Check out the vid's i've just posted in the Conspiracy Theory thread. I don't think the EU have published anything, just fought a rear-guard propaganda action on the couple of occasions that disgusted MEP's have leaked details. They've even been forced to formally retract by force of law some of the few things they published as they were untrue. And yet the material still pervades as propaganda. Discussions are behind closed doors, between ministers and Corporate bodies, and what's been published, can only be read by MEP's in a vault with no ability to take notes or record details, and this level of secrecy is intended to remain for 30years iirc.

Who's conspiring Bruce ???

 

[Bruce Wayne]

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230 are the texts from the negotiation.

those and more are on the TTIP section of the EU website http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/

if you want, you can subscribe via RSS so you're alerted each time a new document is added http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/rss/rss_sec146.xml

 

[SNova]

TTIP all being done in secret. I'm no family of Jeremy Corbyn, but of he does become Labour leader at least Labour might start arguing agaisnt it.

I predict that during the EU referendum campaign TTIP will be debated and could sway a large number of people to vote out.

The EU is corrupt. It's a farce.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

TTIP all being done in secret. I'm no family of Jeremy Corbyn, but of he does become Labour leader at least Labour might start arguing agaisnt it.

I predict that during the EU referendum campaign TTIP will be debated and could sway a large number of people to vote out.

The EU is corrupt. It's a farce.

I'm confused here as the documents from the negotiation appear to be published in full on the EU website http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230

Which bits are they keeping secret?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm willing to accept that EU mandarins are bunglers, but I really don't think they're the evil masterminds that are being portrayed with this. If anything, TTIP would see a reduction in EU powers, so unless they are getting enormous backhanders then I'm not sure what would be in it for them to not only screw the public over, but undertake a huge coverup about the whole thing. Seems more than a little far fetched to me.

 

[orchard]

Well found Bruce, as far as I understand, these articles are the original ones that we used to initiate the discussions (2014). All subsequent amendments and discussions remain secret, excepting the few leaks.

For example: It's commonly accepted that the EU have agreed to drop the precautionary principle it abides by regarding food safety, viz., rather than the EU demand that food and chemicals be proven safe before introduction, we'll abide by US standards which permit there introduction until proven unsafe.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well found Bruce, as far as I understand, these articles are the original ones that we used to initiate the discussions (2014). All subsequent amendments and discussions remain secret, excepting the few leaks.

For example: It's commonly accepted that the EU have agreed to drop the precautionary principle it abides by regarding food safety, viz., rather than the EU demand that food and chemicals be proven safe before introduction, we'll abide by US standards which permit there introduction until proven unsafe.

No idea mate. Looking at the rss feed of the documentation, there are new documents from August, July and so on. For instance, this one from a discussion on intellectual property

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/july/tradoc_153673.pdf

negotiations in April, published in July.

This also on their site:

"
The Commission today (31st July) made public the report on the 10th round of negotiations for a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), which took place from 13-17 July 2015 in Brussels.

The text is now available online. This publication is part of the Commission’s transparency initiative and in line with the commitment to publish more information about the negotiations, along with legal proposals, position papers and other material.

Other new documents released today include a paper for cooperation on textiles, as well as the EU offer on services, investment and e-commerce tabled during the last round of negotiations, and a document on customs measures regarding intellectual property rights.

You can find the documents here."