The EU deal

[Cypher]

son of a French man. Part educated in France

most famous for work resulting from living abroad.

passionate anti xenophobe, inspired hugely by foreigners and foreign lands, at a time when travel to them was not so easy. Imagine if it were.

very much broadened his horizons through travel to and residence in both Europe and the US.

influenced by and influencer of scientists of all nationalities. If he'd have been alive today he'd have been working in collaboration with and in close proximity to other great minds progressing science faster and further.

and before Fleming came Duchesne. Perhaps if he'd have had the benefit of studying in the UK his discovery of penicillin 32yrs earlier may not have been overlooked!

the formative years of his most famous invention were spent living abroad.

No doubt all these were Great Brits, but there's also strong argument that they were influenced by the opening up of the world (as much as could be expected for their respective times) and the fact that they had opportunity.

Leaving the EU is not leaving the rest of the world and building a bubble around us. It's simply a question of how we want to be governed.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Unfortunately the "attract talent" excuse is used too often to justify the drive down wages reason.

Yep. Weren't that long ago people were bemoaning that they had to have three 'A' levels to become a binman...Now we have highly educated people from the EU working as waiters/ factory workers etc...

 

[chrismpw]

Again, yes and no. If we want to attract the brightest people, we need friendly immigration policies. For instance, I was at Nature the other week listening to what some smart youngsters are doing in quantum computing. They were all at British universities, but none were British themselves. Of course you'd like to think that even a 'tough' immigration policy will allow the brightest through, but America does provide an example of where that logical outcome isn't happening.

The top British universities have always allowed the brightest from other countries to come and study here - even before the EU existed - and will undoubtedly continue to do so afterwards. We should not fear that bright people won't be allowed to move around the planet because we stop being the member of one particular club!

Fact is, having worked in the Uk education system for nearly 30 years I can say with conviction that we NEED the brightest to fill our university places because 25 years of National Curriculum and teaching to the exams for league table / ofsted purposes means that the UK aren't producing intelligent, thinking people any more. (Opens the door to social engineering debate and how brainless broken office fodder just turn up and work unquestioningly every day, being entertained/distracted by reality tv and occasionally getting to vote how their newspaper tells them too).

 

[Cypher]

Yep. Weren't that long ago people were bemoaning that they had to have three 'A' levels to become a binman...Now we have highly educated people from the EU working as waiters/ factory workers etc...

We also have 50% of people going to university and a massive problem with university debt.

The fact is that most jobs don't require a university education. Even very well paid jobs like accountancy are often best done as apprenticeships.

Most tech jobs certainly don't require a university education. They do from the point of view that you need one just to get an interview but companies could easily train up staff direct from school.

The brightest and the best argument doesn't really work for me. There's generally a few rockstar techies in a company and if they need to be brought in from outside then that's when immigration is useful and needed however everyone else pretty much fills in the blanks.

Not sure how that's related to the EU. More just a general moan.

 

[daylightrobber]

Leaving the EU is not leaving the rest of the world and building a bubble around us. It's simply a question of how we want to be governed.

For many it's also restricting the free movement of people across a diverse, dynamic, creative continent. A backwards step.

 

[davids]

Anyone who thinks a Brexit will improve the NHS might have to think again.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hief-arron-banks-nhs-privatised-a7022306.html

 

[chrismpw]

America is just a few hundred years old yet is one of the most advanced nations in the world, if not the most advanced.

This argument holds no weight.

Sorry to say I can't agree here. Perhaps 30/40 years ago it was, but to my mind the US has been distracted, as have many other developed countries, with pursuing wealth and power for a few, rather than the betterment of humanity. For advancement, I'd look to the real innovators like the far east, and India where new reliable tech is being manufactured at a phenomenal rate and there is an active space programme. To describe a nation as advanced, I would look for greater equality of wealth (fail), safety (fail - gun crime), fair affordable medical provision (fail) - not just how wealthy a few corporate elite are, as a measure.

 

[Joey66]

I thought the BBC 2 Jeremy Paxman unbiased documentary on the two EU parliaments has been the best insight so far on why we should leave download it on the I player if you rave about staying in - the unelected EU presidents set the laws for all of Europe, and the elected NEPs then have to vote on those laws - the two parliaments alone maintenance cost 100 million!
It would be like our unelected House of Lords doing the same thing totally immoral IMO !
I also remember when we were not in the common market things were just fine on immigration yes it happened, but the people who came excepted our culture, spoke English mixed fine when we were not in the EU!
It's the no control of our borders that is worrying for our younger generation jobs wise!

 

[chrismpw]

For many it's also restricting the free movement of people across a diverse, dynamic, creative continent. A backwards step.

This is a bit of a myth in my eyes. If we had free movement, I wouldn't have had to shell out £80 for a new passport to visit Italy in the summer. There would be no Duanes or border controls at all - but there are.
Furthermore - I wouldn't want free movement. Same reason I lock the front door of my house - I don't mind having guests, but having an open door policy would inevitably result in squatters and theft. If you really are up for this fluffy sounding mystical world of free movement amongst all peoples (so long as they're part of the club), I challenge you to post your address here, and I'll bring my toothbrush if you live in a nicer area than I do.

 

[Seathestars]

Sorry to say I can't agree here. Perhaps 30/40 years ago it was, but to my mind the US has been distracted, as have many other developed countries, with pursuing wealth and power for a few, rather than the betterment of humanity. For advancement, I'd look to the real innovators like the far east, and India where new reliable tech is being manufactured at a phenomenal rate and there is an active space programme. To describe a nation as advanced, I would look for greater equality of wealth (fail), safety (fail - gun crime), fair affordable medical provision (fail) - not just how wealthy a few corporate elite are, as a measure.

I actually agree with you. My point was that just because we vote to leave, doesn't mean that we can't advance ourselves. I used the States as an example because it is relatively young Country, but I agree with you points regarding the corporate elite.

 

[tsubaki]

Wages go up?

Don't be too sure it'd be that simple. Prices'd go up in line. Shareholders & corporates would bemoan the loss of profits due to the decrease in cheap labour. The right-wing remedy'd to be to give them free labour by making people work for their welfare - only wholesale rather than piecemeal.

That didn't work in the aftermath of the Black Death, and it would not work now. Reducing the pool of available workers invariably results in an increase in the wages / terms and conditions of those who remain in the pool, because firms find it much easier to pay a bit more and the labour force itself will almost always have options available to get a better deal. It is probably the most well-evidenced example of supply and demand.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

the unelected EU presidents

Was watching a bit of the Daily politics the other day, and they put up on the screen seven pictures of men, Harriet Harman was on the show and they asked her if she knew who any of them were, she didn't recognise any of them, so couldn't name them, turned out they all held the top 7 jobs in the EU.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

That didn't work in the aftermath of the Black Death, and it would not work now. Reducing the pool of available workers invariably results in an increase in the wages / terms and conditions of those who remain in the pool, because firms find it much easier to pay a bit more and the labour force itself will almost always have options available to get a better deal. It is probably the most well-evidenced example of supply and demand.

There was still serfdom after the black death, mate. We had workhouses after the poor laws of 1834, and kids working in cotton mills & going up chimneys until the earlier part of the 20th century. This lot are going about reintroducing it (Feudalism) via any snide means available.

 

[Cypher]

For many it's also restricting the free movement of people across a diverse, dynamic, creative continent. A backwards step.

There's nothing stopping people from travelling to places like the the US for a few months whether for business or holidays. Besides the UK isn't even a part of Schengen as things stand.

I honestly don't see what difference it is going to make.

 

[tsubaki]

There was still serfdom after the black death, mate. We had workhouses after the poor laws of 1834, and kids working in cotton mills & going up chimneys until the earlier part of the 20th century. This lot are going about reintroducing it (Feudalism) via any snide means available.

er - no. Look at (at least in England) how many pieces of legislation were brought in to try and keep people on the land, and to control wages in the aftermath of the Black Death; the old feudal system was - though not without a struggle - dealt a mortal blow by the disease and never recovered.

As for workhouses / kids up chimneys and at t'mill, yes those happened but mainly because there was an over-supply of labour at that time - especially in towns as enclosures / agricultural technological improvements booted a lot of people out of the countryside and into towns, and the domestic small-scale textile industry was destroyed by the larger, more economic mills.

Once the economy caught up, more jobs came about, and labour got better organized, conditions improved fairly constantly up to the high point of 1945-1970.