"The cuts will make the poor breed more"

[Tubey]

See that text of yours above in bold, it's called conjencture not fact.

You say you're not stereoptyping. Please re-read your own thoughts and tell me you're not doing precisely that.

Dont insult our intelligence mate.

I'd be stereotyping if I said "all". I'm saying there's a percentage.

And that would be fact, I'm afraid. My definition of fact is something that I see with my own eyes happening - everything you have bolded I have personally seen time and time again in my life.

So if it's happening, it's fact, is it not? If I had said "several fish in the pond are green", without actually looking at the pond, that's what I'd call "conjecture".

Look at the sentencing.

There is a groundswell culture...

who has chosen this direction...

it's usually...

No stereotyping here ^^ On the other side of the coin, single mothers from the lower classes work, support their children and hire child care etc. etc. I suppose saying that would be conjecture too?

 

[little curly alan ball]

So am I. £65 per week here personal allocation. Completely skint.

But, are you a single mother with two or three kids, living in a three bedroom council house, youngest is around 12-18 months old, other two in school and you don't drive?

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about...

I'll explain why I may sound aggressive about the benefits system. I hate it because it's self-perpetuating. For every one person incentivized by being better off in benefit and having kids, those kids grow up seeing it. Those kids, unless they do well in school, then do the same thing. The people around them see it and also do it.

There's no reason to try and improve yourself. It's a self-perpetuating rut and it's nothing but corrosive for lower class communities.

People should get help when they need it; all I am saying is that welfare shouldn't be used to prop people up for life.

Kid , I GET motivation .

Ive done the Education , play the Tory game , [Poor language removed] .

Damn , Dude , I'm L.C.A.B. , ffs !!!

Nye Bevin may never have foresaw the Under-Class , but the Principal remains Holy .

 

[a2b chris]

Us poor people breed more, cos we have to do something to keep warm, especially once the heating bills go up again and we get cut off

 

[davek]

I'd be stereotyping if I said "all". I'm saying there's a percentage.

And that would be fact, I'm afraid. My definition of fact is something that I see with my own eyes happening - everything you have bolded I have personally seen time and time again in my life.

So if it's happening, it's fact, is it not? If I had said "several fish in the pond are green", without actually looking at the pond, that's what I'd call "conjecture".

Look at the sentencing.

There is a groundswell culture...

who has chosen this direction...

it's usually...

No stereotyping here ^^ On the other side of the coin, single mothers from the lower classes work, support their children and hire child care etc. etc. I suppose saying that would be conjecture too?

Then you have a bizarre grasp of what a fact actually is. What you're calling fact is your own subjective analysis of random objects that drift across your horizon, and you'll understand that and collate that info using your own value system.

You'd have a fact on your hands if your conclusion (for instance) that there's a "culture of young women aged 18-25 who consciously decide to make a career out of having children and remaining on benefits" was based on a battery of data taken from questions put to hundreds of thousands of claimants on those grounds to find out that their motive was indeed to 'make a career out of having children'. Because you dont, that makes your thoughts conjecture.

No one's going to give you an argument that that doesn't exist, but it's another thing entirely to blackguard a whole generation of women from a particular social strata (the lower class I think you called them) as being career mothers to suit themselves.

 

[Cena]

You'd never get this type of thread on a Chelsea message board

 

[Tubey]

Then you have a bizarre grasp of what a fact actually is. What you're calling fact is your own subjective analysis of random objects that drift across your horizon, and you'll understand that and collate that info using your own value system.

You'd have a fact on your hands if your conclusion (for instance) that there's a "culture of young women aged 18-25 who consciously decide to make a career out of having children and remaining on benefits" was based on a battery of data taken from questions put to hundreds of thousands of claimants on those grounds to find out that their motive was indeed to 'make a career out of having children'. Because you dont, that makes your thoughts conjecture.

No one's going to give you an argument that that doesn't exist, but it's another thing entirely to blackguard a whole generation of women from a particular social strata (the lower class I think you called them) as being career mothers to suit themselves.

Fair enough - how about if I say it's fact in my own personal life. Let's put it this way; I'd never be able to say anything with any degree of confidence if I had to poll 100'000 people to see whether I'm delusional or not. I have confidence in what I am saying and I'm not a thick lad - I also have nothing to gain. If I say it's happening where I live, it's happening as far as I'm concerned. It's up to other people whether they believe me of course but because I'm telling the truth, I see it as fact.

Go figure! ^^ Warped view of it or not that's the way I roll xD I can only comment factually on what I myself experience, of course!

I'm not "blackguarding" or stereotyping anything; which I've made clear four times now I think! If I'm seeing young women from the lower classes settling into a life of a career mother, then it's happening. It's happening next door to me in fact. I've personally given advice to around 30-40 women specifically asking how much better off they would be if they had another child. I've been asked once by a woman how much better off they'd be in work. So that's my personal "sampling" I guess.

But I'm not generalising the whole generation. I've said several times that it's some, not all. Some do this, others work and aim to better themselves. Again, I know a lot of single mums who work and do their best. But even so, the fact that there is a system in place to accommodate the "some" is wrong and needs addressing.

What I have noticed in this discussion is that it's degenerated into technicalities about how I'm presenting information, rather than the information itself - which makes me wonder if it's worth continuing discussing the differences between fact, personal observation and experience and conjecture on a thread about a cringeworthily ridiculous comment about a politician!

 

[davek]

Fair enough - how about if I say it's fact in my own personal life. Let's put it this way; I'd never be able to say anything with any degree of confidence if I had to poll 100'000 people to see whether I'm delusional or not. I have confidence in what I am saying and I'm not a thick lad - I also have nothing to gain. If I say it's happening where I live, it's happening as far as I'm concerned. It's up to other people whether they believe me of course but because I'm telling the truth, I see it as fact.

Go figure! ^^ Warped view of it or not that's the way I roll xD I can only comment factually on what I myself experience, of course!

I'm not "blackguarding" or stereotyping anything; which I've made clear four times now I think! If I'm seeing young women from the lower classes settling into a life of a career mother, then it's happening. It's happening next door to me in fact. I've personally given advice to around 30-40 women specifically asking how much better off they would be if they had another child. I've been asked once by a woman how much better off they'd be in work. So that's my personal "sampling" I guess.

But I'm not generalising the whole generation. I've said several times that it's some, not all. Some do this, others work and aim to better themselves. Again, I know a lot of single mums who work and do their best. But even so, the fact that there is a system in place to accommodate the "some" is wrong and needs addressing.

What I have noticed in this discussion is that it's degenerated into technicalities about how I'm presenting information, rather than the information itself - which makes me wonder if it's worth continuing discussing the differences between fact, personal observation and experience and conjecture on a thread about a cringeworthily ridiculous comment about a politician!

No mate, it didn't degenerate it got more detailed and you elaborated your position and because of that it became more understandable.

The dialectic at work.

 

[chicoazul]

I blame the introduction of Hooch and Two Dogs, that made them easier and sleazier.

 

[DionDublin]

i disagree with the title of the thread.

end.