"Soccernomics" Says Pay Pienaar His Money

Status
Not open for further replies.

njligernj

Player Valuation: £15m
Anyone read Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski? Interesting read -- I'm in the middle of it right now.

They did a statistical study of transfers and found that the amount spent on transfers didn't have that much correlation with success -- however the amount spent on salaries had a very large correlation.

"In short, the more you pay your players in wages, the higher you will finish; but what you pay for them in transfer fees doesn't seem to make much difference. (This suggests that, in general, it may be better to raise your players' pay than risk losing a couple of them and have to go out and buy replacements.)"

I obviously won't type out all the charts and numbers but it's interesting stuff and they put a lot of time and study into making their determinations.

"Any inefficient market is an opportunity for somebody. If most clubs are wasting most of their transfer money, then a club that spends wisely is going to outperform."

Well that sums us up to a tee.

The salary stuff is major food for thought as far as I'm concerned. If we have (for argument's sake, 10-15 million pounds to spend ... maybe by selling Yak and Yobo and a little bit from TV money) you could make an argument for not "buying" anyone but instead signing Pienaar (and extending Arteta) and maybe picking up the likes of Petrov (or Ballack or Cole if they'd come here which they probably wouldn't ... Ballack maybe). Regardless, I don't want to argue specifics players (Petrov, Ballack and Cole might not be good fits but you get the general idea). Arsenal have definitely gone this route -- they don't spend a huge amount on transfers (relative to their CL peers) but their wage bill is massive in order to retain the young talent Wenger has spotted. We can't spend as much as them but there is no reason we couldn't have toned down version of the same system.

That said, you can obviously pay players too much and you do have to worry about other players getting jealous and wanting raises too. However, as a general guiding strategy it does seem to make more sense than relying too heavily on transfers. Just common sense wise, yes Moyes has unearthed some gems, but losing Pienaar and then expecting him to find a suitable replacement for (say) 5 million is pushing our luck. Then he'll want to be paid too -- if he becomes as good as Pienaar then he might want as much.

Now, granted, if we don't have the money to pay then it's all moot. However that's where the strategy of not buying anyone (we bugger it up waiting until the last minute usually anyway) and using the money on salaries makes sense. Obviously you have to buy at some point, however sometimes the money might be better spent on salaries. In addition, the Arsenal model of buying young and waiting for them to develop might also be more valuable than buying relatively finished products for 10 mil +.

I know there is something of a phobia over this type of analysis in football -- there was the exact same phobia in baseball and then these "maths guys" started winning championships. Before you dismiss it I think reading the book is worth the time.
 

Anyone read Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski? Interesting read -- I'm in the middle of it right now.

They did a statistical study of transfers and found that the amount spent on transfers didn't have that much correlation with success -- however the amount spent on salaries had a very large correlation.

Such a study would only hold weight if HISTORICAL trends held true for FUTURE trends.

As THE BUBBLE IS BURSTING in football finance. This is not the case.

* You can't argue that after this year that these historical trends hold any water. Last year despite recession wages on average in the PL went up 11%. Thats unsustainable.

* Last December was the quietest transfer window in the history of Sky's Premier League.

That coupled with the now passed UEFA finance regulations, where we are in the middle of a transition period that LIMITS EXPENDITURE AND OUTSIDE FINANCING PER SEASON (averaged over three years)


Basically mate. That article is a load of
jerkit.gif
 
Last edited:
I forgot to add that we are doing the majority of what the authors have suggested anyway.

Pienaar brought in for nominal fee. Arteta, Jagielka etc.


Its like trying to sell tea to China.


I'm also adding that the "correlation with wages" is FAR more complicated than it appears.

I could say that "the correlation with wages" with clubs going into administration is strong.

But again its far more complicated than that. Look at fat Rafael.

Its far too simplistic to make those author's assertions.
 
Last edited:
Such a study would only hold weight if HISTORICAL trends held true for FUTURE trends.

As THE BUBBLE IS BURSTING in football finance. This is not the case.

* You can't argue that after this year that these historical trends hold any water. Last year despite recession wages on average in the PL went up 11%. Thats unsustainable.

* Last December was the quietest transfer window in the history of Sky's Premier League.

That coupled with the now passed UEFA finance regulations, where we are in the middle of a transition period that LIMITS EXPENDITURE AND OUTSIDE FINANCING PER SEASON (averaged over three years)


Basically mate. That article is a load of
jerkit.gif

Actually I would think rather the opposite, it makes it even more relevant. Now there will be less moeny to go round, teams having to spend within their means, so not wasting money on transfers and using the funds saved to keep your current top players would be even more important.

Having said that, we are not going to win the Premier League just by paying our current players more. Even with sensible use of the theory above investment in new players will always be required, and picking up quality players on a free isn't particularly easy or common.
 

For the life of me i dont know why clubs dont introduce a larger element of performence realted success into players contracts.

Say a basic wage of 30k a week which say could jump to 60k depending on success and the rest linked to final placeing, european qualifcation etc - knowing that any money glemed from success will be there if its acheived.
 
Its far too simplistic to make those author's assertions.

If the book is definitely not one thing it's simplistic. We'd be a lot better off if every now again people read books they believe they disagree with but they read them anyway to better understand the argument. I'd suggest reading it before just making a wank sign and going back inside your box. I'm always amazed at how we have all these football forums, talk shows, papers, sites and so forth and nobody is ever remotely interested in any new ideas. If it's not idle transfer gossip or the same old bloody arguments then nobody wants to hear it. Fine, I'll change the post to "we should play 4-4-2 more" or "we should sign this guy we have no bloody chance of signing and we can't afford anyway ... but I had him on Football Manager and he's great" -- far more likely to get a conversation going that way.

People ignored this kind of thing in baseball and football in the US for years saying the same arguments you said until people started winning trophies applying these kinds of ideas. Wegner has a degree in economic sciences and he uses statistical and "moneyball" ideas to help his management. Lyon have used a lot of them as well to go from 2nd division nobodies to winning their league every year and playing in the CL. Football is changing (albeit frustratingly slowly) and guys like Wegner are way ahead of the curve. People always seem to think, maybe because he is "foreign," that his success is some kind of mysterious innate continental football genius -- in reality a great deal of it can be attributed to him just understanding certain fundamental statistical realities which most other teams dismiss in much the same way you do.

Actually I would think rather the opposite, it makes it even more relevant. Now there will be less moeny to go round, teams having to spend within their means, so not wasting money on transfers and using the funds saved to keep your current top players would be even more important.

Exactly. The fluctuations in transfers and wages are essentially irrelevant because it's all a matter of scale. People will still spend some money on transfers and some on wages (it may well be less than now but it will still be a lot of money) -- so applying a solid strategy to the spending make sense. The new regulations aren't a salary cap per se but there are a lot of parallels. A lot of the reasons for the rise of this kind of thinking in US sports is to help teams navigate the limitations placed on them by salary caps and limited budgets. The inventor of "moneyball theory" created it because there were teams like the Yankees who spent more than he ever could so he had to invent a system of management which would allow them to compete on a fraction of the budget. Limitations on spending don't make this kind of thinking less relevant -- it makes it far, far more relevant (it was the reason it was invented).
 

Didn't help them barcodes though did it.

Well Newcastle is a prime example of why spending on transfers doesn't dictate success. As for the salary element:

"When Francisco Perez Cutino analyzed data for the Premier League for the 2006-2007 season, for an unpublished MBA paper at Judge Business School in Cambridge, he found that 'only Newcastle United seemed to significantly underperform taking into account its wage expenditure.'"

To put it another way:

Statement: "birds can fly."

Argument: "penguins can't fly ... therefore you're wrong ... birds can't fly."

Newcastle doesn't mean it isn't true.
 
Well Newcastle is a prime example of why spending on transfers doesn't dictate success. As for the salary element:

"When Francisco Perez Cutino analyzed data for the Premier League for the 2006-2007 season, for an unpublished MBA paper at Judge Business School in Cambridge, he found that 'only Newcastle United seemed to significantly underperform taking into account its wage expenditure.'"

To put it another way:

Statement: "birds can fly."

Argument: "penguins can't fly ... therefore you're wrong ... birds can't fly."

Newcastle doesn't mean it isn't true.

Birds can fly though mate.
 
Two reasons why Pienaar is likely to be sold:
1. Massive profit to be made
2. Wage demand might incur additional wage costs for other top earners with clauses in contract to match highest earner (Arteta, Yak, Cahill from memory) - so paying Pienaar £60K would mean almost £3M per annum additional costs.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join Grand Old Team to get involved in the Everton discussion. Signing up is quick, easy, and completely free.

Shop

Back
Top