Scouting and youth

[Zatara]

One thing which hasn't really been focused on in either of the Fellaini or Baines threads is the amount of profit we would be making on both of them if they were sold.

Baines 6mil -- circa 18mil.
Fellaini 15mil -- circa 25mil

That's a profit of 22mil.

Surely this should be a business model for a club such as ours -- buy young, develop the player -- sell high.

It hasn't worked out too badly for many overseas clubs so why not us ?

Young players such as Rodwell and Barkley will hopefully cement places in the squad as well as other young lads such as Garbutt and Duffy....players like Anichebe can be sold for a couple of mil...

Our scouts will have to be heavily relied upon to pick up quality players who are undervalued or can improve....

When you look at it as a business....we're not doing too badly and by following the model of buying youth and selling players at peak value we would soon pay off our debts and look more attractive to potential investors/buyers.

Perhaps it wouldnt be such a bad thing to remove Cahill (salary+past it), Anichebe (whens he leaving) Fellaini + Baines from the squad at the right prices and re-invest in a bunch of younger players......whilst paying off a large amount of our debt ??

If you maxed out your credit card and were paying huge interest every month -- wouldn't you want to pay it off as soon as possible ??

 

[Zatara]

You can even go the whole hog and say WHAT IF Jelavic is top scorer in the euros and a 25mil bid comes in for him....etc etc...

The key point is, for the money we would see for these players -- I'm confident as long as Moyes focused on youth he would find equally good replacements....

Essien/Cech/Hazard/Defour/Moutinho/Hart -- were all scouted by us in the past but we didnt have the funds.....

What would have happened if we DID have the funds for the next wave of players such as this -- short-term we may suffer a couple of positions in the league but in a couple of years we potentially would have a very good young side.

 

[kenada_blue]

It's what we already do, one of the youth coaches said it a while ago.

The idea of everyone is for sale for a price is true, no one is irreplaceable.

The problem there is we rely heavily on this method that, if we run out of talent to sell for high fees...the club will buckle and break as the owners invest zero into the club.

It's a bad tight rope because if a key player like Felli is sold, you have to hope the replacement for a bargin price can fill the void. If it doesn't, the league form dips and things get nervy. Additionally youll be hoping to get your money back from selling that replacement, which is a gamble if he's not very good.

We also don't have the funds. We won't ever go over 2mill for a youth player unless they can hit the 1st team

 

[Zatara]

It's what we already do, one of the youth coaches said it a while ago.

The idea of everyone is for sale for a price is true, no one is irreplaceable.

The problem there is we rely heavily on this method that, if we run out of talent to sell for high fees...the club will buckle and break as the owners invest zero into the club.

It's a bad tight rope because if a key player like Felli is sold, you have to hope the replacement for a bargin price can fill the void. If it doesn't, the league form dips and things get nervy. Additionally youll be hoping to get your money back from selling that replacement, which is a gamble if he's not very good.

We also don't have the funds. We won't ever go over 2mill for a youth player unless they can hit the 1st team

But with a couple (or a few) sales both to provide large funds+free salaries up we would certainly have more than enough to not only buy a bunch of youth prospects but also bring in a couple of quality 21 year olds....

EDIT -- Even to the Fellaini standard of when we signed him.

 

[steken1]

We have been doing this for years.

Ball, Jeffers, Rooney, Dunne, Vaughan and a few others were all brought through and sold to keep the club afloat.

I don't think making it public knowledge would go down well with our more gullible fans and it would also alert clubs that they may get a player off us cheaply. The Lescott affair showed other sides if you want a player from us then you pay top dollar.

As much as I sometimes hate Moyes for the way he sets us up and his fear of big reputations it cant be denied he's second only to Wenger in spotting talent for cheap and developing it. This is the main reason I want him at the club. If he went we would struggle to replicate his success in finding players and selling them for big fee's.

With the way things are off the pitch we would go under withing 5 years without that as the cupboards have never been so bare.

 

[ToffeeBlueNose]

 

[meagher94]

Jelavic is quality, no doubt about that. I love the guy.

But in no circumstance is anybody gonna come in with £25m for him.

 

[Neiler]

I think its going to be interesting to see the next set of accounts to be honest, the bottom line debt figure is the one that interests me to be honest.

I think we are at the end of of a borrowing cycle, we have seen many players we have bought young and cheap sold that we have made a profit on and prob for the first time the 20 odd million that we made was not wholly spent of the team or huge outlays made on the wage bill bar Mofro and Barkleys contract.

If the club manages to bring down the bottom line overall debt figure it will be a uniuqe thing in football and interesting model. That said we could just be at the start of another another borrowing cycle.

 

[john mckenna]

do we really want to go down the road of becoming a nursery and proving ground for players,find them develop them and prepare them for premier league football then sell them !,all that means is we get a side together with the potential (with one or two new faces)to kick on and be in contention for a champions league place with all the rewards that brings and then see our best players moved on and have to start again.

 

[steken1]

Jelavic is quality, no doubt about that. I love the guy.

But in no circumstance is anybody gonna come in with £25m for him.

From what I've seen of Gomez, Jela is twice the player.

 

[steken1]

I think its going to be interesting to see the next set of accounts to be honest, the bottom line debt figure is the one that interests me to be honest.

I think we are at the end of of a borrowing cycle, we have seen many players we have bought young and cheap sold that we have made a profit on and prob for the first time the 20 odd million that we made was not wholly spent of the team or huge outlays made on the wage bill bar Mofro and Barkleys contract.

If the club manages to bring down the bottom line overall debt figure it will be a uniuqe thing in football and interesting model. That said we could just be at the start of another another borrowing cycle.

I can't see us starting another to be honest. The security is no longer there and we rolled the dice and came up short. Realistically the stakes are much, much higher than they have ever been before.

In light of the new FFP regs the only way we will get a new or improved ground will be to generate big revenues. The one cast iron way we have of doing this is through Moyes player trading. For me we should ramp this up a notch and I'd accept ten years of mediocrity if it meant getting a ground that stood us in good stead for the next four decades.

As poor as the football would be at times Moyes would not get us relegated.

 

[Neiler]

From todays Echo:

UNSURPRISINGLY for someone who spent a large chunk of his playing career alongside Billy Bremner in Leeds United’s infamous Seventies team, Jimmy Lumsden does not mince his words.

While the Glaswegian was perhaps a more cultured player than some he shared a dressing room with back then, he was still not fond of backing down – a trait which has served him well during a 25-year coaching career.

The last decade of that varied stint has been spent at Goodison Park, where the popular 64-year-old is head coach, and has become a trusted lieutenant to David Moyes throughout his own tenure in the Everton hot-seat.

The pair worked together at Preston North End before Moyes took Lumsden with him when Bill Kenwright came calling in 2002, but although they are close, Lumsden is quick to admit that he is no yes man when it comes to plotting Everton’s success.

“I wouldn’t say it’s friendship all the time,â€￾ he says reflecting on the enduring dynamic he shares with the three-time LMA manager of the year. “We’re close, but I’ve got to be truthful and say part of the reason I think I’m there is because we don’t agree a lot of the time. We see eye to eye on the important things, eventually, but not everything and he accepts that. I don’t just nod my head and say ‘Yes Gaffer, you’re right’. I’ll say my piece and stick by it and sometimes I’m proved right and sometimes not.

“We bounce off each other well because of that and he knows he’ll get honesty from me when we’re discussing a player or something.â€￾

So as someone who has worked so closely to the Everton boss during his time on Merseyside, has Lumsden noticed him change? Surely, he has mellowed to a degree, something even the man himself acknowledges?

“No,â€￾ says Lumsden. “I’ve not noticed him change and I wouldn’t like him to change. His work ethic has never once dipped. He works as hard as anyone I know and his training methods are first class. They make him stand out. He takes on an unbelievable workload and he expects everyone around him to follow his example.â€￾

Outside observers may credit an element of fortune to Everton’s capture of Nikica Jelavic for £5.5m in January, especially after his scintillating 11-goal start to life in the Premier League. But Lumsden believes it owes more to precision planning and hard work.

“We watched him for a long time, we always saw him and all had our opinions,â€￾ he says. “It was the same with Tim Cahill and Joleon Lescott – we must have watched them 20 times.

“Leighton Baines and Phil Jagielka too. I watched Jags playing a lot for Sheffield United; in centre midfield and at right back. We scrutinise them and have different views. We debate it and watch them some more but importantly we prefer to always go to games and watch them. We’ll never rely on watching DVDs of players.

“I’m not exaggerating when I say he works harder than anyone,â€￾ adds Lumsden on Moyes. “At the end of the season me and him were watching Crewe and Sir Alex Ferguson was there. They were the only two managers at the game. That sums David up and full credit to Fergie too because he could easily listen to people and not do the miles but he was there. That’s the secret – hard work.â€￾

Lumsden says those long car journeys to and from games are consumed with talk of just one topic. “We never listen to music,â€￾ he says. “We are talking about the next day and what we need to do, or how training went that day.

“Maybe it’s the team we’re playing at the weekend or who we would like to bring in if we could.â€￾

For Lumsden, though, it has been a decade he as thoroughly enjoyed. “It’s been a special time,â€￾ he says.

“It’s been frustrating at times, like when we think we are getting close to maybe challenging for the Champions League, but then just fell short because of lack of finances.

“But there are a lot of clubs in a similar boat. Everton are a bit like Celtic in a lot of ways. David called it right when he said it was the People’s Club.

“In my playing days I never got to run out at Goodison in a league game unfortunately, but it still never fails to impress me now.

“We might not have the money but our supporters bring the atmosphere and will to win.

“The one thing I hope never stops is that atmosphere.

“No team will ever relish coming to Goodison – let’s always make it like that.â€￾

 

[Neiler]

I can't see us starting another to be honest. The security is no longer there and we rolled the dice and came up short. Realistically the stakes are much, much higher than they have ever been before.

In light of the new FFP regs the only way we will get a new or improved ground will be to generate big revenues. The one cast iron way we have of doing this is through Moyes player trading. For me we should ramp this up a notch and I'd accept ten years of mediocrity if it meant getting a ground that stood us in good stead for the next four decades.

As poor as the football would be at times Moyes would not get us relegated.

Its an interesting pov mate, but tbh i cant see it, i dont think the board are in it for the long term either - so the best we can hope for is change. If we wanted to totally fund a new stadium we are prob looking at 200mill + in cash reserves, maybe 100 mill of our own and 100mill debt. I cant see us being able to sit on that for ten years, but i agree a self sustainable buissness model rather being drip fed of a new owner is defo the way to go. Another prob i see in Davey, i think we would be lucky to keep him for another ten years anyway but asking him to thread water for ten years would prob hasten his departure - just my two sense.

 

[steken1]

Its an interesting pov mate, but tbh i cant see it, i dont think the board are in it for the long term either - so the best we can hope for is change. If we wanted to totally fund a new stadium we are prob looking at 200mill + in cash reserves, maybe 100 mill of our own and 100mill debt. I cant see us being able to sit on that for ten years, but i agree a self sustainable buissness model rather being drip fed of a new owner is defo the way to go. Another prob i see in Davey, i think we would be lucky to keep him for another ten years anyway but asking him to thread water for ten years would prob hasten his departure - just my two sense.

Yeah, I think he needs to feel he's getting somewhere even if he isn't.

Baines, Fella, Jag or Johnny, Jelavic and Rodwell or Ross. How much could we raise there? I'd say close to £100m being the optimist that I am. Also if it was clear we were selling to raise funds for a ground rather than a fire sale we probably wouldn't need to compromise on price with vultures.

I still don't think we'd get relegated if Moyes got £10m back for the likes of Pienaar, Donovan and a player like Holt. Though whether they would come through a transistional phase is doubtful.

Thats enough to make a serious start on something or to make Goodison a different animal.

 

[turner]

If the board could "generate" £5-10m more per year we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

And if you don't think that could be done, look at Villa's turnover compared to ours.