Rapid-Transit Rail Guarantees Success for EFC, LFC and Arena

[Muggins]

Note that Milton Keynes Dons built an international class stadium when in administration. Getting money is not an issue if the plan is there. Getting hold of finance is not a major problem if a proposal is presented with all the essential ingredients.

hand in hand. Pete Winkelman had a plan, they built an IKEA, ASDA megastore (largest in Europe) and the Football Stadium...

However.....getting to MK Dons stadium is a nightmare, as they definitely did not think thru the logistics of getting that many people to and from a stadium on Internation games..(u21's etc) I missed the first 15mins coz of gridlocked traffic, and all sorts of road rage was kicking off...not with me like...

oh and as far as i remember they haven't finished the upper tier, as there is no point coz MK Dons won;t fill it. I suspect the bigger plan is to host some Olympic football matches, as you can see from the conrete shell its going to be at least a 4 star stadium...

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Clearly this cat doesn't understand the ethics involved with posting here. Expect him to be outed as a fascist nazi by the end of the week.

 

[Inner-city]

The MK Dons stadium is very nice indeed and has held England U-21 games. There's parking for over 2000 cars in the Stadium car park and there's also parking in the industrial park across the road. There's also the car parks of the nearby ASDA Superstore and an IKEA. There's also a KFC and a McDonalds nearer to the stadium if you fancy heart attack food before the game. MK Dons fans park there then their wives and daughters are dispatched to the shops whilst the husbands and sons go to the football. Extra buses are run from both rail stations and the city centre.

Inside there is a huge concourse area where you can see the ground, eat, drink and mingle before the match. As per Salzburg's Red Bull Area and the Allianz Arena in Munich.

The seats are a bit like the ones a Wembley. Big, padded and very comfortable with a ton of leg room. The viewing area is superb.

At the moment the Stadium:mk holds 22,000. The second tier doesn't have any seats yet. Capacity will rise to 30,000. If they get the World Cup games there is the capacity to install another tier to bring capacity up to 45,000.

The Stadium is excellent as is the supporting infrastructure as MK has the finest road system in Europe. The town has a very high car ownership with little bus transport.

The west coast main line runs past and a station can be built. But it is not an urban rail network like Mesreyrail, so the impact would be minimal. There is a station at nearby by Bletchley a walk away. The M1 is not far and the M40 15 minutes past Buckingham going west.

The point is that they built it while under administration. So much for EFC being skint - said by those who work in the bagwash . You borrow.

 

[Matt Damon]

The MK Dons stadium is very nice indeed and has held England U-21 games. There's parking for over 2000 cars in the Stadium car park and there's also parking in the industrial park across the road. There's also the car parks of the nearby ASDA Superstore and an IKEA. There's also a KFC and a McDonalds nearer to the stadium if you fancy heart attack food before the game. MK Dons fans park there then their wives and daughters are dispatched to the shops whilst the husbands and sons go to the football. Extra buses are run from both rail stations and the city centre.

Inside there is a huge concourse area where you can see the ground, eat, drink and mingle before the match. As per Salzburg's Red Bull Area and the Allianz Arena in Munich.

The seats are a bit like the ones a Wembley. Big, padded and very comfortable with a ton of leg room. The viewing area is superb.

At the moment the Stadium:mk holds 22,000. The second tier doesn't have any seats yet. Capacity will rise to 30,000. If they get the World Cup games there is the capacity to install another tier to bring capacity up to 45,000.

The Stadium is excellent as is the supporting infrastructure as MK has the finest road system in Europe. The town has a very high car ownership with little bus transport.

The west coast main line runs past and a station can be built. But it is not an urban rail network like Mesreyrail, so the impact would be minimal. There is a station at nearby by Bletchley a walk away. The M1 is not far and the M40 15 minutes past Buckingham going west.

The point is that they built it while under administration. So much for EFC being skint - said by those who work in the bagwash . You borrow.

The underlined bit.

You ONLY borrow if the terms for borrowing are good. And what with the situation in the banks trying to recoup money from the 2008 crisis - the terms are not good...

even at historically low interest rates. They're not being passed on to businesses.

 

[Inner-city]

The underlined bit.

You ONLY borrow if the terms for borrowing are good. And what with the situation in the banks trying to recoup money from the 2008 crisis - the terms are not good...

even at historically low interest rates. They're not being passed on to businesses.

Arsenal, despite 15 years of success at the top, never had £300 million to spare, however saw what would attract fans - a top quality stadium with top facilities and getting fans to and from the stadium fast and in comfort. Their profits are phenomenal rising from around £37m when at Highbury to £100m on top of that.

Premier League football has not shown a significant decline since the Credit Crunch. Far from it. If anything it is a sure-fire winner financing a large Premiership club in infrastructure. To a financier, the club does not need to win silver trophies, just compete at the top and earn enough to pay back the loans. The longevity of top Premier football clubs ensures the business is unlikely to fold with repayment assured in the long term. This security is a great bargaining tool for striking a good deal. It is not like lending £200m to a company that may be gone in 5 to 7 years time.

 

[Matt Damon]

Arsenal, despite 15 years of success at the top, never had £300 million to spare, however saw what would attract fans - a top quality stadium with top facilities and getting fans to and from the stadium fast and in comfort. Their profits are phenomenal rising from around £37m when at Highbury to £100m on top of that.

Premier League football has not shown a significant decline since the Credit Crunch. Far from it. If anything it is a sure-fire winner financing a large Premiership club in infrastructure. To a financier, the club does not need to win silver trophies, just compete at the top and earn enough to pay back the loans. The longevity of top Premier football clubs ensures the business is unlikely to fold with repayment assured in the long term. This security is great bargaining tool for striking a good deal. It is not like lend £200m to company that be be gone in 5 to 7 years time.

The likes of Portsmouth, West Ham and our Red neighbours have ruined that image of football clubs being "sound investments"... that coupled to high wage:turnover ratios.

You're over estimating the attraction of major financial institutions to football clubs any more. When they're viewed as bottomless pits for cash where you throw money in but never seem to see any back.

That and the fact major reform of the banking sector is/likely to happen soon.

When they talk about the banks undergoing "stress testing" they're talking about liquidity. The assumption that the banks have bottomless pits of cash lying around to borrow to clubs - without the stringiest of terms is mistaken.

Hence RBS are going "nasty" with the red lot.


Investment takes many forms. I think Bill and the rest of the board are looking for someone to come onto the board to put some cash in, and take a slice of the increased "value" of the club.

This is massively tied in to the stadium issue and perceived future profitability.

But again, the previous terms of interested parties may have been that their slice was too high (of this) and that it would dilute the existing board's power too much and we'd end up with problems.


This is typical in business.

We're seeing investment of sorts by Sodexo and Kitbag in that proposed new building.

But the whole loan/enabling funding from local gov is a none starter it would seem due to:

a. non-viable commercial loans from banks at rates the club can't afford or would damage the club's competitiveness
b. local government budgets are being cut centrally anyway, so this idea that they're swimming in cash is nonsense.


We'll get a private investor, eventually. Might not be at the scale to completely finance a stadium alone without (improved banking sector health) loans and some enabling funding.


But its an investor who the current board will be able to work with, and who's not going to take too much of a cut from the increasing value of the club. And / or could spark a war in the board room... and who actually does have the cash, not just empty promises of hard capital.

 

[tsubaki]

It is the economic growth that attracts Whitehall. The line with approx 4 million trips for football per year will be self financing. Then other trips on top will add to the attraction.

I wish that this was true, but I fear that the insane concentration on HS2 (estimated* at almost £18 billion for a route between london and brum that duplicates two other lines) will suck out all transport funding for several generations to come.

 

[Inner-city]

The likes of Portsmouth, West Ham and our Red neighbours have ruined that image of football clubs being "sound investments"..

Please keep up. The new stricter Premier financial framework to prevent this sort of shark takeovers is further guarantees that Premier clubs are stable and ideal for lending to.

You're over estimating the attraction of major financial institutions to football clubs any more. When they're viewed as bottomless pits for cash where you throw money in but never seem to see any back.

How many top clubs have disappeared lately? The top group have been around on average for 120 years and look like they will be for another 120 years. Lending to such secure companies is what the money men want.

Investment takes many forms. I think Bill and the rest of the board are looking for someone to come onto the board to put some cash in, and take a slice of the increased "value" of the club.

The only increased value is in building a stadium, one which is maximized. That means:

1. Top quality facilities
2. Top quality transport access - that means rapid-transit

a. non-viable commercial loans from banks at rates the club can't afford or would damage the club's competitiveness
b. local government budgets are being cut centrally anyway, so this idea that they're swimming in cash is nonsense.

You negotiate viable commercial loans. Premier clubs will be sound investment material. The rules are changing.

What has local government funding to do with it? The Dept for Transport fund rail. When they see great need and economic gain the are interested.

Transport infrastructure projects are assessed on a DfT "good value for money" calculation.

Value for money category - Benefit to Cost Ratio - Prospects For the Projects
Poor - less than 1 - None
Low - Between 1 and 1.5 - None
Medium - Between 1.5 and 2 - Some but by no means at all
High - Over 2 - Most if not all

Merseytram is 1.5. The Outer Loop line with two clubs, an Arena and airport served on it would be "2 (most if not all)"

If Kenright had any business brain he would first make sure the Outer Loop is recommissioned and by getting all parties on board, LFC, Area, council, Merseytravel, etc to ensure this. Then have a stadium plan and get the loans. Then no need to sell. Arsenal were in a good position in that all they needed was the local council on their side to get some CPOs. They never needed another footy club to get on board.

It is all doable. EFC can have their cake and eat it. The city greatly benefits as well.

 

[Matt Damon]

Please keep up. The new stricter Premier financial framework to prevent this sort of shark takeovers is further guarantees that Premier clubs are stable and ideal for lending to.



How many top clubs have disappeared lately? The top group have been around on average for 120 years and look like they will be for another 120 years. Lending to such secure companies is what the money men want.



The only increased value is in building a stadium, one which is maximized. That means:

1. Top quality facilities
2. Top quality transport access - that means rapid-transit

You negotiate viable commercial loans. Premier clubs will be sound investment material. The rules are changing.

What has local government funding to do with it? The Dept for Transport fund rail. When they see great need and economic gain the are interested.

Transport infrastructure projects are assessed on a DfT "good value for money" calculation.

Value for money category - Benefit to Cost Ratio - Prospects For the Projects
Poor - less than 1 - None
Low - Between 1 and 1.5 - None
Medium - Between 1.5 and 2 - Some but by no means at all
High - Over 2 - Most if not all

Merseytram is 1.5. The Outer Loop line with two club and an Arena on it would be 2 (most if not all)

If Kenright had any business brain he would first make sure the Outer Loop is recommissioned and by getting all parties on board, LFC, Area, council, Merseytravel, etc. Then have a plan and get the loans. Then no need to sell. Arsenal were in a good position in that all they needed was the local council on their side to get some CPOs.They never needed another footy club to get on board.

It is all doable. EFC can have their cake and eat it. The city greatly benefits as well.

I'll give you one thing. You're consummate at responding to points by answering what you think we should know without addressing the actual points!

You say "negotiate viable commercial loans" - that assumes that banks want to negotiate at all!

Local government are of course involved - they provide much of the local infrastructure roads etc



And as for the football clubs themselves. Have you seen their debt levels recently?

 

[johnnydawg68]

Here's the conundrum.

Option 1: Ideally the club has the cash or can finance a loan to build a new stadium, and then is able to maximize gameday revenue through increased hospitality suite revenue, concession revenue, on site parking, etc. Easy ROI on that. Much like a mortgage, if you finance it over a 30 years or so then you can make the payments with increased revenues easily IF all of that money does not get spend elsewhere, i.e. on transfer fees and higher player wages. We don't have the cash though do we? And as Damon pointed out, I don't see financial institutions lining up to lend us the money. We lose money now and there is no concrete plan in place. So until then any talk of a new stadium is fantasy.

2) If we bring in a private investor, that investor would want his money back. I would, and I'm a blue bleeding Evertonian. The only way I would put money in for a piece of an "expanding value" of the club is if I owned the thing outright, which many say on here Kenwright won't consider. So that's out.

3) An investor "pays" for a new stadium by buying in but he would want his money back out of those increased revenues, wouldn't he? So Everton would get a new stadium, but wouldn't exactly increase it's spendable income. Fans don't like it when you don't spend a lot money. They are great at wanting to spend other people's money.

What am I missing?

 

[Blue Ray]

MMMMMMmmmmmm you likey..???

pmsl here

 

[Inner-city]

I'll give you one thing. You're consummate at responding to points by answering what you think we should know without addressing the actual points!

You say "negotiate viable commercial loans" - that assumes that banks want to negotiate at all!

I address the points. Also the points that matter. I also address the positive aspects. All too often people are negative and only look at failures - or perceived failures. A Liverpool trait.

Local government are of course involved - they provide much of the local infrastructure roads etc

They do not. That is paid for by the clubs. Arsenal had to contribute £7.5m up update rail around them when 27 platforms were still available. Mainly to improve concourse facilities to improve throughput.

And as for the football clubs themselves. Have you seen their debt levels recently?

Which means nothing. They do fund a £300m stadium out of petty cash. They borrow. After borrowing they still draw in vastly more revenue than before and after paying off the loan.

 

[Inner-city]

Here's the conundrum.

Option 1: Ideally the club has the cash or can finance a loan to build a new stadium, and then is able to maximize gameday revenue through increased hospitality suite revenue, concession revenue, on site parking, etc. Easy ROI on that. Much like a mortgage, if you finance it over a 30 years or so then you can make the payments with increased revenues easily IF all of that money does not get spend elsewhere, i.e. on transfer fees and higher player wages. We don't have the cash though do we? And as Damon pointed out, I don't see financial institutions lining up to lend us the money. We lose money now and there is no concrete plan in place. So until then any talk of a new stadium is fantasy.

Er, I think you saying that after paying the stadium debt, there will be nothing left for players? Arsenal don't find that.

Talk of a new stadium is very real, not fantasy. The point is get the two club on a rapid transit line top ensure success - no one ever mentions the benefits to the city as whole. Are people here footy obsessed and focused?

2) If we bring in a private investor, that investor would want his money back. I would, and I'm a blue bleeding Evertonian. The only way I would put money in for a piece of an "expanding value" of the club is if I owned the thing outright, which many say on here Kenwright won't consider. So that's out.

Of course he will want his money back. But by making sure the club does well he can get his money back.

3) An investor "pays" for a new stadium by buying in but he would want his money back out of those increased revenues, wouldn't he? So Everton would get a new stadium, but wouldn't exactly increase it's spendable income. Fans don't like it when you don't spend a lot money. They are great at wanting to spend other people's money.

If the investor has £300m in his account, then he borrows, as everyone else has.

What am I missing?

You missed a lot. You missed that others do it without any problems at all. Are you always so negative?

 

[Matt Damon]

Er, I think you saying that after paying the stadium debt, there will be nothing left for players? Arsenal don't find that.

Talk of a new stadium is very real, not fantasy. The point is get the two club on a rapid transit line top ensure success - no one ever mentions the benefits to the city as whole. Are people here footy obsessed and focused?



Of course he will want his money back. But by making sure the club does well he can get his money back.



If the investor has £300m in his account, then he borrows, as everyone else has.



You missed a lot. You missed that others do it without any problems at all. Are you always so negative?

In science scepticism is the default position. And Everton is the school of science right?

And why it may be great throwing round £100's million ... this is the real world and it's not as simple as saying "you negotiate viable terms" when getting loans.

You'd think 2008 never happened!

 

[johnnydawg68]

"Er, I think you saying that after paying the stadium debt, there will be nothing left for players? Arsenal don't find that".

Arsenal had real value in the real estate that Highbury sat on. We have Bellefield, which we can't sell or get planning permission to make any money off, and a location in West Derby would bring a fraction of the price of location in Islington. Arsenal also had a waiting list of season ticket holders which we do not have. I do agree we can increase attendance by building a new stadium in a better location with easier transport links and easier parking (lost of people still drive you know - 70% of Evertonians drive to Goodison according to the report I saw), but doubt we can go from 38k or so to 60k. Plus, maybe you don't read the papers much, but Arsenal don't spend much money in the transfer market. They pay high wages, but they don't throw a lot of money away on transfer fees.

"Talk of a new stadium is very real, not fantasy. The point is get the two club on a rapid transit line top ensure success - no one ever mentions the benefits to the city as whole. Are people here footy obsessed and focused"?. First of all yes we are footy obsessed, mate. That's why we're here. I would LOVE to see a new stadium. But it just isn't happening anytime soon, unless SOMETHING changes. The status quo will not produce a new stadium in my opinion. They tried it with Kirkby, and without even remotely weighing in on the wisdom of that scheme, it failed.

"Of course he will want his money back. But by making sure the club does well he can get his money back". That is the vaguest statement I've heard in a while.

"If the investor has £300m in his account, then he borrows, as everyone else has". Not sure what this is referring to. If we had someone who owned the club with 300 mill in the bank, we could get a loan for a new stadium PROVIDED there was a plan in place. There isn't. And we don't have an owner with 300 mill in the bank.

"You missed a lot. You missed that others do it without any problems at all. Are you always so negative?" Who are all the OTHERS that are doing this with no problem at all? Arsenal did it because they're Arsenal. They also did it before the financial markets crashed. Plus they had a pent up demand. Something that may or may not be true with us. It's speculation. And they had equity in their real estate. You think we're going to sell the ground under Goodison in Walton for more than 5 quid? For chrissake, LFC can't even get a stadium financed and they are WAY richer than we are. Spurs haven't gotten permission yet either. But again, they have a pent up demand that justifies it.

I'm not negative, I'm just being realistic. I hope I'm wrong mate I really do. I think you are right about thinking about the logistics of where to put a stadium. You've put a lot of thought into it. Well done. But unless the city gets on board and bends over backwards to help EFC and quit favoring LFC, then it will take a while longer.