Post Stoke game, Stick or Twist?

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to be honest I would have thought that was how most people would describe Moyes default setting? play to not concede first, then hope to nick it. obviously we had moments where we were more expansive but I dont think Id be alone in describing his tactics as that.

As for your second comment, well you know the answer to that. Its not how he wants to play or how he believes football should be played, which is fine by me. Just a pity things are not going so great currently but we will see where we are end of season or beyond.

Dont you think that logically, restricting space and playing the percentages is easier to implement than an expansive attacking style? Its certainly easier to get results with the former style which for me offsets somewhat this argument that Moyes squad was worse than what Martinez has had to work with.

The excuses for Martinez are getting more and more ridiculous by the day. The fact that Moyes was operating under far more difficult circumstances is now apparently offset by Martinez neglecting the need to defend on a football pitch. If it's that easy to implement then maybe Martinez should try doing it at some point, I don't know, maybe when we are in the lead with 10 minutes to go, or maybe even with just 30 seconds to go.

Neglecting the need to defend on a football pitch is not an excuse for our regression under Martinez, it's actually fool hardy bad management that leads to the team he is in charge of languishing in the bottom half of the table.
 

What I find most frustrating in everything is that we havent been soundly beaten in any game, except UTD at home, which I think can be put to one side.

Were vastly superior than most team's we have played this year in each game. Our problem is gifting teams goals.

Take all four goals yesterday; four individual errors. Stones , Barry, Galloway & Howard all were at fault for a goal.

What annoys me most is that teams arent 'earning' there goals against us; they are being gifted them.

Stoke were [Poor language removed] yesterday; Leicester and Palace were the weeks before. But we have gifted the teams opportunities and goals. We battered all three teams; created chances/tested goalies/hit the woodwork, but each time we have come away with nothing.

Its very difficult to judge as the fact remains we are playing some teams off the park but not getting points. We need to do better defensively as were not good enough to have a one goal lead; our fabulous trio of Geri, Rom & Barkley were dead on there feet when that 4th went in yesterday. Geri was nearly in tears from my view. Rom couldnt watch the penalty.

Where does the blame lie?

For me, we have two guys in the defensive pack who should be doing more; Stones & Howard.

Howard is an utter joke situation right now; his position is becoming further untenable with every game. I actually think Martinez is being hugely unfair on him now as the pressure is a joke on him and hes clearly not good enough. Martinez really should take him out the limelight for both there sakes.

Stones isnt improving his defensive capabilities whatsoever and is showing no sign of the leadership/snide side which he needs to develop to become 'Everton & England captain' (his words). Its all well and good being great going forward, and I think we all know he is going to be superb. But we were saying the same thing last year, and when he first broke in. Now, this season, is the time where he needs to develop further. I dont see it currently.

I also attach blame at Martinez roundly. He needs to somehow get more out of this team; he needs to find a way to get us defending better and carrying on the purple patch we have of scoring as we simply are a joy to watch going forward, especially when Barkley, Rom & Geri are in tandem like they are. Absolutely blow teams away they are, but right now, there manager is letting them down. He isnt giving them a chance for their skills and goals to earn the wins those three in particular deserve.
His treatment of Robles and Howard is also very stubborn and will cost him his job eventually.

I say he has the rest of this season and if we finish 8th or below, I would seek a new manager. I feel if we keep him in charge, without substantial investment in the playing squad, the likes of Rom & Ross will feel that they need a change. Whilst not ideal, a new manager may give them the impetus to stay for one more year, as will the substantial squad investment. Without either, I think they will feel its time to move on as Martinez will no longer be able to get anything more out of them, in particular those two.
 
What I find most frustrating in everything is that we havent been soundly beaten in any game, except UTD at home, which I think can be put to one side.

Were vastly superior than most team's we have played this year in each game. Our problem is gifting teams goals.

Take all four goals yesterday; four individual errors. Stones , Barry, Galloway & Howard all were at fault for a goal.

What annoys me most is that teams arent 'earning' there goals against us; they are being gifted them.

Stoke were [Poor language removed] yesterday; Leicester and Palace were the weeks before. But we have gifted the teams opportunities and goals. We battered all three teams; created chances/tested goalies/hit the woodwork, but each time we have come away with nothing.

Its very difficult to judge as the fact remains we are playing some teams off the park but not getting points. We need to do better defensively as were not good enough to have a one goal lead; our fabulous trio of Geri, Rom & Barkley were dead on there feet when that 4th went in yesterday. Geri was nearly in tears from my view. Rom couldnt watch the penalty.

Where does the blame lie?

For me, we have two guys in the defensive pack who should be doing more; Stones & Howard.

Howard is an utter joke situation right now; his position is becoming further untenable with every game. I actually think Martinez is being hugely unfair on him now as the pressure is a joke on him and hes clearly not good enough. Martinez really should take him out the limelight for both there sakes.

Stones isnt improving his defensive capabilities whatsoever and is showing no sign of the leadership/snide side which he needs to develop to become 'Everton & England captain' (his words). Its all well and good being great going forward, and I think we all know he is going to be superb. But we were saying the same thing last year, and when he first broke in. Now, this season, is the time where he needs to develop further. I dont see it currently.

I also attach blame at Martinez roundly. He needs to somehow get more out of this team; he needs to find a way to get us defending better and carrying on the purple patch we have of scoring as we simply are a joy to watch going forward, especially when Barkley, Rom & Geri are in tandem like they are. Absolutely blow teams away they are, but right now, there manager is letting them down. He isnt giving them a chance for their skills and goals to earn the wins those three in particular deserve.
His treatment of Robles and Howard is also very stubborn and will cost him his job eventually.

I say he has the rest of this season and if we finish 8th or below, I would seek a new manager. I feel if we keep him in charge, without substantial investment in the playing squad, the likes of Rom & Ross will feel that they need a change. Whilst not ideal, a new manager may give them the impetus to stay for one more year, as will the substantial squad investment. Without either, I think they will feel its time to move on as Martinez will no longer be able to get anything more out of them, in particular those two.
Far point,but,another season wasted?
 

The excuses for Martinez are getting more and more ridiculous by the day. The fact that Moyes was operating under far more difficult circumstances is now apparently offset by Martinez neglecting the need to defend on a football pitch. If it's that easy to implement then maybe Martinez should try doing it at some point, I don't know, maybe when we are in the lead with 10 minutes to go, or maybe even with just 30 seconds to go.

Neglecting the need to defend on a football pitch is not an excuse for our regression under Martinez, it's actually fool hardy bad management that leads to the team he is in charge of languishing in the bottom half of the table.

i dont believe I have said anything about neglecting the need to defend Dymak. Just trying to have a discussion.

I dont think my point, as I put it, is in any way ridiculous. Maybe try reply to what Im actually saying rather than flying off on one of your many angry rants. The situation is not as black and white as many try to present it.
 
What I find most frustrating in everything is that we havent been soundly beaten in any game, except UTD at home, which I think can be put to one side.

Were vastly superior than most team's we have played this year in each game. Our problem is gifting teams goals.

Take all four goals yesterday; four individual errors. Stones , Barry, Galloway & Howard all were at fault for a goal.

What annoys me most is that teams arent 'earning' there goals against us; they are being gifted them.

Stoke were [Poor language removed] yesterday; Leicester and Palace were the weeks before. But we have gifted the teams opportunities and goals. We battered all three teams; created chances/tested goalies/hit the woodwork, but each time we have come away with nothing.

Its very difficult to judge as the fact remains we are playing some teams off the park but not getting points. We need to do better defensively as were not good enough to have a one goal lead; our fabulous trio of Geri, Rom & Barkley were dead on there feet when that 4th went in yesterday. Geri was nearly in tears from my view. Rom couldnt watch the penalty.

Where does the blame lie?

For me, we have two guys in the defensive pack who should be doing more; Stones & Howard.

Howard is an utter joke situation right now; his position is becoming further untenable with every game. I actually think Martinez is being hugely unfair on him now as the pressure is a joke on him and hes clearly not good enough. Martinez really should take him out the limelight for both there sakes.

Stones isnt improving his defensive capabilities whatsoever and is showing no sign of the leadership/snide side which he needs to develop to become 'Everton & England captain' (his words). Its all well and good being great going forward, and I think we all know he is going to be superb. But we were saying the same thing last year, and when he first broke in. Now, this season, is the time where he needs to develop further. I dont see it currently.

I also attach blame at Martinez roundly. He needs to somehow get more out of this team; he needs to find a way to get us defending better and carrying on the purple patch we have of scoring as we simply are a joy to watch going forward, especially when Barkley, Rom & Geri are in tandem like they are. Absolutely blow teams away they are, but right now, there manager is letting them down. He isnt giving them a chance for their skills and goals to earn the wins those three in particular deserve.
His treatment of Robles and Howard is also very stubborn and will cost him his job eventually.

I say he has the rest of this season and if we finish 8th or below, I would seek a new manager. I feel if we keep him in charge, without substantial investment in the playing squad, the likes of Rom & Ross will feel that they need a change. Whilst not ideal, a new manager may give them the impetus to stay for one more year, as will the substantial squad investment. Without either, I think they will feel its time to move on as Martinez will no longer be able to get anything more out of them, in particular those two.

some good points, although a bit harsh on some of our opponents.

Stones, I have to disagree completely. It doesnt have to be all now or never. I think much more patience is needed with young players taking on so much responsibility. Him being ambitious shouldnt be held against him or deny him that level of patience young players should be given. Hype about him is not his doing and shouldnt be used by fans to come down hard on him when going through a poor patch.
 
some good points, although a bit harsh on some of our opponents.

Stones, I have to disagree completely. It doesnt have to be all now or never. I think much more patience is needed with young players taking on so much responsibility. Him being ambitious shouldnt be held against him or deny him that level of patience young players should be given. Hype about him is not his doing and shouldnt be used by fans to come down hard on him when going through a poor patch.

On that side of the coin; why the hell are we not showing patience with what is a very young team?

Take out Barry and I bet the average age of the outfield was about 23/24 yesterday.
 

It's the thought of tearing teams apart with our attacking football that's still keeping me on board. Only just mind. Its getting close to the point where I think we need to get someone else in. Like many on here I have no idea who that would be.

I cant except a mid table season again though, not when you see some of the teams above us. Luckily the league is extremely tight at the moment so if we go on a run we can still finish high.

The ease in which we concede goals is obvious to all inside and outside of Everton so it would be ridiculous to think that Martinez doesn't see it and isn't try to rectify the problem. I would think the coaching staff would see it as a step back to change our current style to a more cautious style and I think I agree with that. We need to find a balance. I have no idea how such things are achieved so I'm ok with supporting Martinez till the end of the season to see if he finds it.
 
i dont believe I have said anything about neglecting the need to defend Dymak. Just trying to have a discussion.

I dont think my point, as I put it, is in any way ridiculous. Maybe try reply to what Im actually saying rather than flying off on one of your many angry rants. The situation is not as black and white as many try to present it.

I'm not angry, so I apologise if my post came across that way. Well, it does seem that you are trying to argue that Martinez' ridiculous brand of football, in which he totally neglects a team's need to defend in favour of a moronic gung-ho attack that sees our fullbacks spend most of their time on the edge of the opposition penalty area, somehow offsets the fact that Moyes was operating in far more difficult circumstances during his Everton tenure.

I don't agree with this at all. Martinez' decision to play a less effective brand of football than Moyes is just a case of bad management that results in us performing worse than we did under Moyes, even though Martinez has had it far easier than Moyes. His ridiculous brand of football doesn't offset anything.
 
I'm not angry, so I apologise if my post came across that way. Well, it does seem that you are trying to argue that Martinez' ridiculous brand of football, in which he totally neglects a team's need to defend in favour of a moronic gung-ho attack that sees our fullbacks spend most of their time on the edge of the opposition penalty area, somehow offsets the fact that Moyes was operating in far more difficult circumstances during his Everton tenure.

I don't agree with this at all. Martinez' decision to play a less effective brand of football than Moyes is just a case of bad management that results in us performing worse than we did under Moyes, even though Martinez has had it far easier than Moyes. His ridiculous brand of football doesn't offset anything.

As porous as our defense is and as low as the points total is right now, I would disagree that the boss neglects defense. I dont think thats anything but an overstatement to back up an understandable annoyance with the state of things. Of course its part of the training and the tactics. Do you think there is actually zero drills or concentration on defense in training??

No you dont, or at least you shouldnt so it shouldnt be presented as such to make your point.

He uses his tactics because he believes, as do I that when working well it can be more effective to breed regular and sustained success at a club than the culture of defense and safety first that IMO is more suited to short term success.

Unfortunately I think that for some fans, such as yourself...and this is not a criticism...you just dont have the type of manager you would like to see here and so of course its tough to take when we arent doing well and you know the club will stick with him.

You are right in saying there should be a little more pragmatism, but I am sure we have shown that at times. We showed it last season when we definitely tightened up to see us through a very bad run. If anybody could be bothered to watch the 0-0 with Spurs last season again, ive seen it twice, we got batter at the start and after 15-20 minutes we settled and held our own a loy better. You could see a clear and solid defensive shape when Spurs are on the ball. Cover on each side, and shifting the shape as Spurs switched sides.

You can still see these defensive drills and shapes in our games this season, otherwise we would be wide open all the time like Ardiles Spurs team....but that is just not the case and I dont think its true to say we are overly gungho or neglecting the defensive side of things.

We are frustrating as hell right now but I still think good things are coming, and again ask that the relative inexperience in the Prem League of 3 of our defence is taken into account as I dont think it is by the people criticising and looking for a change of boss.
 
Hiya mate.

You raise some good points there, shame you couldn't make it for a beer pre-match, it would have been good to have a natter about Martinez and stuff.

You did make it to the match I take it ?

@ETID88

Come on mate, I don't mind being stood up for a beer, it's fine. There'll be other matches for us to chew the cud over the pros and cons of Martinez being in charge, but you're swerving me in here, you're ignoring my PM's but liking loads of posts. I might be a bit paranoid, but I'm beginning to think you don't like me :(
 

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