New Everton Stadium Discussion

[Tom Hughes]

The construction contract isn't the full story though is it? There is a huge process that leads up to and alongside that which arent site or project specific. The Main stand cost them £114m as they can hardly call it a completed build until all the fit out is completed and it is ready for handover. Anfield road will increase, as all projects of this nature do, for a variety of reasons. With BMD as a completed project, at point of handover, it's likely we'd pass £700m

Anyway, the crux of it is, will it be cheaper to expand Goodison? Maybe so, in the short term. Does that make it a better option that BMD? In my opinion, no, as there are more opportinities available to us at BMD than there ever will be at GP.

This is a massive opportunity for us, a chance to make a statement, a chance to add something else to the city, in both the new stadium and the legacy project.

 

[Tom Hughes]

The construction contract isn't the full story though is it? There is a huge process that leads up to and alongside that which arent site or project specific. The Main stand cost them £114m as they can hardly call it a completed build until all the fit out is completed and it is ready for handover. Anfield road will increase, as all projects of this nature do, for a variety of reasons. With BMD as a completed project, at point of handover, it's likely we'd pass £700m

Anyway, the crux of it is, will it be cheaper to expand Goodison? Maybe so, in the short term. Does that make it a better option that BMD? In my opinion, no, as there are more opportinities available to us at BMD than there ever will be at GP.

This is a massive opportunity for us, a chance to make a statement, a chance to add something else to the city, in both the new stadium and the legacy project.

£74m included fit out. The additional costs tagged onto a lot of stadium projects are not always stadium connected (to add value or attract investment eg. £400m for Kirkby for instance, when the stadium component was only £100m). I haven't seen the breakdown for LFC but these could include the club museum, external facilities such as the massive club shop, site preps for a Hotel and all associated infrastructure, land/property acquisition..... much of which that might not apply to adding a net 6-10k to the Bullens, and another 6-8k to the park end and/or replacing/expanding the upper Gwladys St to achieve 52-60k as illustrated in the pdf, which also cited other stadium redevelopments that were much cheaper per seat than LFCs mainstand, which after all is practically as big as Wembley's stands. Costs do not rise if you negotiate fixed contracts and avoid imponderables like heritage demands, rising sea-levels (which between them have already added £100m+ already and or any additional infrastructure costs (we've already been told that Merseyrail will not be footing the bill for a new station in Vauxhall, how much will new marshalling facilities or platform extension be at Sandhills?), and anything else that a new site might generate.

Yes, BMD could project other opportunities, but the design hardly appears to exploit these. No closing roof for concerts (and to stop the front 15 rows getting soaked as occurs at so many stadia with high roof lines)? No moving pitch to facilitate year round multi-purpose operation? Just 20 boxes when some clubs have over 100, with some convertible to hotel/conference suites? This stadium is costing over double Lille's which was structurally more complex and provided all of these. It was complete only 7yrs ago. Sumilarly Feyenoord's new proposals due to open roughly at the same time, but is over 10k larger with a closing roof? So yes, opportunities and appearances are there, but what is the reality and what is the cost, and can we all get there as easily as GP which might cost only 25% as much for a similar capacity? How much of an increased opportunity might that represent in being able to building a good team too?

 

[Jacko93]

£74m included fit out. The additional costs tagged onto a lot of stadium projects are not always stadium connected (to add value or attract investment eg. £400m for Kirkby for instance, when the stadium component was only £100m). I haven't seen the breakdown for LFC but these could include the club museum, external facilities such as the massive club shop, site preps for a Hotel and all associated infrastructure, land/property acquisition..... much of which that might not apply to adding a net 6-10k to the Bullens, and another 6-8k to the park end and/or replacing/expanding the upper Gwladys St to achieve 52-60k as illustrated in the pdf, which also cited other stadium redevelopments that were much cheaper per seat than LFCs mainstand, which after all is practically as big as Wembley's stands. Costs do not rise if you negotiate fixed contracts and avoid imponderables like heritage demands, rising sea-levels (which between them have already added £100m+ already and or any additional infrastructure costs (we've already been told that Merseyrail will not be footing the bill for a new station in Vauxhall, how much will new marshalling facilities or platform extension be at Sandhills?), and anything else that a new site might generate.

Yes, BMD could project other opportunities, but the design hardly appears to exploit these. No closing roof for concerts (and to stop the front 15 rows getting soaked as occurs at so many stadia with high roof lines)? No moving pitch to facilitate year round multi-purpose operation? Just 20 boxes when some clubs have over 100, with some convertible to hotel/conference suites? This stadium is costing over double Lille's which was structurally more complex and provided all of these. It was complete only 7yrs ago. Sumilarly Feyenoord's new proposals due to open roughly at the same time, but is over 10k larger with a closing roof? So yes, opportunities and appearances are there, but what is the reality and what is the cost, and can we all get there as easily as GP which might cost only 25% as much for a similar capacity? How much of an increased opportunity might that represent in being able to building a good team too?

I dont want to get into a petty argument. But the cost for the build of the new Main stand was not £74m and it's not over £100m due to club shop, museum or anything like that.

The model for corporate boxes is changing and the numbers reflect that. It is becoming increasingly difficult for corporates to justify their spending on such 'perks' as many businesses dont allow the acceptance of them. Also, it was said early in the process that the model for the stadium wasn't built upon leveraging corporate seats. That's a directive from the club, so would be the same regardless of new build or redevelopment.

Why is there a need for a moving pitch? What would we gain over readily available pitch surface covers that can be hired?

Regardless of all this though, we'll not be redeveloping. Some people, such as yourself have your reasons for believing that is the best option, but others dont. Fortunately, one of those that don't is the club themselves.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Much as I love Goodison, if it's a choice between moving to BMD or redeveloping Goodison, then I'm totally in favour of moving.

If it was a choice between a proper redevelopment of Goodison or moving to Kirkby, Walton Hall or Stonebridge Cross, then I could understand the argument being raised again, but it's not, so it just seems like Tom's still got a old bee buzzing round his bonnet.

It may well be that Moshiri et al are planning to use BMD as a future way of leveraging cash out of their projects, but frankly, so long as it's no worse than cash neutral for us as a club, who gives a flying one.

#MambaOut

"So long as it's cash neutral for us as a club"...... I'm wouldn't argue with that at all. I just haven't seen that mentioned anywhere! Hopefully you're right and USM will wave their magic wand.

 

[Brisan123]

"So long as it's cash neutral for us as a club"...... I'm wouldn't argue with that at all. I just haven't seen that mentioned anywhere! Hopefully you're right and USM will wave their magic wand.

USM have already waved their magic wand
30 million to get to the front of a non existent queue

 

[AsiaAsia82]

This is the new stadium discussion if people want to talk about redeveloping Goodison perhaps there’s a separate thread, in the section that includes other seventies themed topics.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Well clearly I wouldn't suggest putting it in Birkenhead, the mention of city centre proximity was in response to your comment of it only being a short distance closer to Lime Street than Goodison is now (assuming that Lime Street will remain the major inward transport hub of Liverpool), and that BMD will never be the centre. The City Centre is moving north, as shown with upcoming investments in the 10 streets, Pall Mall developments, Liverpool Waters etc. The dock road is getting reduced to one lane as we speak, yeah, but it is highly likely that much of that will be closed to traffic anyway on matchday, creating singular incoming arteries for road traffic as required with a more direct and 'pedestrian light' route

The thing that impresses me so much about the vision of BMD is that it is based upon a vision of what Liverpool will be, what the transport networks will be, what the transport methods will be, rather than what it is now which by its very nature will be 3 years out of date by the time the project may be completed.

There was a time for redevelopment of GP, but I personally believe that it has passed. It is beyond now what the ground itself can give us, it's more about what the entire environment can give us. I love the experience of GP, and have done for the 21 years I've been going, I'm absolutely making sure that my lads are going to experience it (my eldest already has a ST) and I genuinely feel for those who wont have the opportunity (there may be ways to keep some part of it for posterity, to allow generations to come some access to at least part of the GP experience). However, BMD for me is an opportunity for the new age of Everton and for it to be aligned with the new age for the city.

BMD will NEVER be at the centre of the city. I agree about proximity to centre and all its hubs, but BMD will always be at the periphery of the city centre

This is the new stadium discussion if people want to talk about redeveloping Goodison perhaps there’s a separate thread, in the section that includes other seventies themed topics.

Making comparisons with all the options is about the new stadium. This thread started before BMD.
No other club have moved without considering the redevelopment option as their benchmark with which to make comprehensive comparison. Has anyone seen any images of a redeveloped GP from say a club commissioned stadium outline-design competion, complete with initial cost estimates etc? Alternatively, how does BMD compare to the world renowned stadium architects HOK's outline design for the Loop site? If you dont know the answers to those questions, how can you talk with such authority or be so dismissive of those who ask?

 

[Tom Hughes]

USM have already waved their magic wand
30 million to get to the front of a non existent queue

Yes indeed (although I'm not sure if that had more to do with keeping the FFP wolves from the door). It also makes you wonder why we still haven't finalised the finances and are still openly touting for a loan.

 

[GwladysBlue]

Can’t wait for this to be built now. Anyone who knows the area will know how much it needs this, too.

 

[tommye]

 

[Tom Hughes]

And yet it is a solution that is off the table, so I don’t understand why it is still being debated?

Maybe because it was also off the table over the park, and they even had full planning permission in place for a bigger stadium.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

Yes indeed (although I'm not sure if that had more to do with keeping the FFP wolves from the door). It also makes you wonder why we still haven't finalised the finances and are still openly touting for a loan.

Because you need to borrow money to build a whacking great stadium?

 

[Abraders]

Can’t wait for this to be built now. Anyone who knows the area will know how much it needs this, too.

If the stadium comes with a mass redevelopment of the surrounding area as promised, it could be really beautiful and would absolutely benefit the entire city

 

[GwladysPhil]

Looks like the forum has a new challenger to @davek

 

[The binman chronicles]

Maybe because it was also off the table over the park, and they even had full planning permission in place for a bigger stadium.

They also had already cleared a lot of streets and had built a fairly big and modern stand in 94 (especially when you compare against our PE stand), the centenary stand was only a couple of years before to help make that decision a bit more palatable. I'm thinking they were quite a bit ahead of us, yet it has still been 7 odd years and they have built one stand. And it looks naff.

Then we look at Goodison, one stand is coming up to 100 years old, another is 82, the main stand is 50 and requires tearing down, as to make that unobstructed would lose thousands of seats under the balcony.

It will just make a carbuncle by adding to buildings that were of another age, they may as well be demolished and rebuilt. Do that then we may as well build on another site where we don't have to evict people from their homes.

If BMD falls through then you might get a more receptive audience but whatever you say now will not cause the board to say 'you know what that Tom Hughes was right after all, let's scrap building at BMD'. If we did I'd imagine we would lose a lot of support from the council who have been helping to make BMD a reality.