Moyes after three

[billycopper]

Mate, look at where we are as an organisation by going through that process: nowhere.

The proof of the pudding....

We started off with Ginola, Gascoigne and Blomqvist. We evolved through Bent and Kilbane, a Champions League campaign, a league cup semi final and an FA Cup Final to, without a doubt, our strongest squad in recent years without increasing the clubs debts.

 

[davek]

We started off with Ginola, Gascoigne and Blomqvist. We evolved through Bent and Kilbane, a Champions League campaign, a league cup semi final and an FA Cup Final to, without a doubt, our strongest squad in recent years without increasing the clubs debts.

Mate, there's no doubting Moyes ability to squeeze a dollar out of a dime, but he can do only so much with the recycling effort. We are where we are. If you think we can continue with the present set up and progress then good luck to you. It's not my belief.

 

[billycopper]

Mate, there's no doubting Moyes ability to squeeze a dollar out of a dime, but he can do only so much with the recycling effort. We are where we are. If you think we can continue with the present set up and progress then good luck to you. It's not my belief.

At the tail end of last season we were being compared to Barcelona. If we can speculate on a couple of players of genuine quality, I don't see why we can't compete at the very highest level. The Premier League is wide open. We could become dark horses like Valencia or Villareal. I don't see the need to overhaul the squad or to replace the manager. I'm happy to have an Evertonian chairman. I wouldn't want to see us go the way of Portsmouth, West Ham or Newcastle. I'd be concerned if I was a Blackburn fan too. We're doing things the right way. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.

 

[davek]

At the tail end of last season we were being compared to Barcelona. If we can speculate on a couple of players of genuine quality, I don't see why we can't compete at the very highest level. The Premier League is wide open. We could become dark horses like Valencia or Villareal. I don't see the need to overhaul the squad or to replace the manager. I'm happy to have an Evertonian chairman. I wouldn't want to see us go the way of Portsmouth, West Ham or Newcastle. I'd be concerned if I was a Blackburn fan too. We're doing things the right way. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.

That was the plan way back when wasn't it? We add two decent players to improve the squad each season and keep our jewels and that would mean we ended up with a squad capaable of breaking through the glass ceiling. Hasn't quite worked out that way after the last three or four transfer windows selling to buy and hoping to crack on.

By the way, competing at the highest level: for me that means winning trophies. Maybe that's where we differ and you think getting a Europa League place is also an achievement? Not said to be patronising, btw.

 

[billycopper]

Heitinga and Bily were supposed to push us on. Both players have the pedigree, but it hasn't quite come off so far. Nobody can get it right every time. There's still some dead wood that we can offload in order to reinvest.

It's a concern that assets such as Gosling, Pienaar, Anichebe and Vaughan could leave the club for next to nothing. We need to replace those players to keep up squad numbers, without breaking the bank. I imagine that one or two of the youth players will be given an opportunity to step up and we'll look at free transfers.

I do think we are capable of winning trophies. Over the last few years there's nobody that we haven't beaten. When could you say that in the past? Our problem is turning draws into wins and generally being more clinical. Hopefully that will come.

 

[linglong]

Moyes before this season, "I think in my time at Everton we've now got as strong a squad as we've ever had so I'm looking forward to it (the coming season). I'm looking forward to having a season with them and seeing how it goes."

Now he's desperate for 3 loan signings in January.

along with every other media pundit,trouble was we believed our own hype

Funny things happen when you do that

 

[Philw]

Mate, look at where we are as an organisation by going through that process: nowhere.

The proof of the pudding....

We started off with Ginola, Gascoigne and Blomqvist. We evolved through Bent and Kilbane, a Champions League campaign, a league cup semi final and an FA Cup Final to, without a doubt, our strongest squad in recent years without increasing the clubs debts.

Mate, there's no doubting Moyes ability to squeeze a dollar out of a dime, but he can do only so much with the recycling effort. We are where we are. If you think we can continue with the present set up and progress then good luck to you. It's not my belief.

At the tail end of last season we were being compared to Barcelona. If we can speculate on a couple of players of genuine quality, I don't see why we can't compete at the very highest level. The Premier League is wide open. We could become dark horses like Valencia or Villareal. I don't see the need to overhaul the squad or to replace the manager. I'm happy to have an Evertonian chairman. I wouldn't want to see us go the way of Portsmouth, West Ham or Newcastle. I'd be concerned if I was a Blackburn fan too. We're doing things the right way. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.

That was the plan way back when wasn't it? We add two decent players to improve the squad each season and keep our jewels and that would mean we ended up with a squad capaable of breaking through the glass ceiling. Hasn't quite worked out that way after the last three or four transfer windows selling to buy and hoping to crack on.

By the way, competing at the highest level: for me that means winning trophies. Maybe that's where we differ and you think getting a Europa League place is also an achievement? Not said to be patronising, btw.

Heitinga and Bily were supposed to push us on. Both players have the pedigree, but it hasn't quite come off so far. Nobody can get it right every time. There's still some dead wood that we can offload in order to reinvest.

It's a concern that assets such as Gosling, Pienaar, Anichebe and Vaughan could leave the club for next to nothing. We need to replace those players to keep up squad numbers, without breaking the bank. I imagine that one or two of the youth players will be given an opportunity to step up and we'll look at free transfers.

I do think we are capable of winning trophies. Over the last few years there's nobody that we haven't beaten. When could you say that in the past? Our problem is turning draws into wins and generally being more clinical. Hopefully that will come.

It is a process, and it is one that has brought us a long way, but can only take us so far, and we're nearing the end of that path imo. While with the squad we have I believe we could be a dark horse, I can't see us making a sustained year on year challenge as things stand. I think there's a trophy in this squad in the next few years, but whether there's more than one....

To turn us into a consistent force the process needs to change, but without increased funding I don't see that happening, less we get a 90s ManU golden generation, and someone drops a Cantona in our lap...

 

[billycopper]

It is a process, and it is one that has brought us a long way, but can only take us so far, and we're nearing the end of that path imo. While with the squad we have I believe we could be a dark horse, I can't see us making a sustained year on year challenge as things stand. I think there's a trophy in this squad in the next few years, but whether there's more than one....

To turn us into a consistent force the process needs to change, but without increased funding I don't see that happening, less we get a 90s ManU golden generation, and someone drops a Cantona in our lap...

Money doesn't guarantee success. How long before City have a side to rival Barcelona? How long til they actually win something? It might not happen at all. Blackburn could decide to wade in with big money offers, but the world's best still won't want to play for them, because they want to go to the glamour clubs instead.

By neccessity we have to do things differently. If, by hook or by crook, we can find ourselves a consistent goalscorer and a dynamic wideman, then I don't think there are too many other areas that we could improve upon.

Winning is a habit that takes time to learn. Until this season we've progressed in every campaign. The learning curve this time round has been steeper, but it will benefit us in the long run. We've got an excellent foundation to be a top, top team.

 

[davek]

Money doesn't guarantee success. How long before City have a side to rival Barcelona? How long til they actually win something? It might not happen at all. Blackburn could decide to wade in with big money offers, but the world's best still won't want to play for them, because they want to go to the glamour clubs instead.

By neccessity we have to do things differently. If, by hook or by crook, we can find ourselves a consistent goalscorer and a dynamic wideman, then I don't think there are too many other areas that we could improve upon.

Winning is a habit that takes time to learn. Until this season we've progressed in every campaign. The learning curve this time round has been steeper, but it will benefit us in the long run. We've got an excellent foundation to be a top, top team.

Money doesn't guarantee success. Spot on, Agreed. The counterpoint holds true also though: having little or no money pretty much guarantees you'll achieve nothing of note in this football environment.

I have no objection with your philosophy on football: building up and progressing assuredly to titles/cups is more satisfying than buying them with billions. But when it's applied it's a theory that doesn't work. We need to spend much more than we do if we're to stand a chance of progress now. That evolutionary course we plotted through the noughties has led to a cul de sac. More of the same for the next few years will see us stuck there. I dont know how much more evidence you need to demonstrate that we've - at best - plateaued out. Transfer windows where we sell and bring in free signings and a punt on kids for the future; table position slipping; players deciding to jump ship. We might recover from 14th to a respectable top half finish of 7th or 8th. Who knows. Regardless, the medication isn't working.

 

[Philw]

Money doesn't guarantee success. How long before City have a side to rival Barcelona? How long til they actually win something? It might not happen at all. Blackburn could decide to wade in with big money offers, but the world's best still won't want to play for them, because they want to go to the glamour clubs instead.

By neccessity we have to do things differently. If, by hook or by crook, we can find ourselves a consistent goalscorer and a dynamic wideman, then I don't think there are too many other areas that we could improve upon.

Winning is a habit that takes time to learn. Until this season we've progressed in every campaign. The learning curve this time round has been steeper, but it will benefit us in the long run. We've got an excellent foundation to be a top, top team.

Money doesn't guarantee success. Spot on, Agreed. The counterpoint holds true also though: having little or no money pretty much guarantees you'll achieve nothing of note in this football environment.

I have no objection with your philosophy on football: building up and progressing assuredly to titles/cups is more satisfying than buying them with billions. But when it's applied it's a theory that doesn't work. We need to spend much more than we do if we're to stand a chance of progress now. That evolutionary course we plotted through the noughties has led to a cul de sac. More of the same for the next few years will see us stuck there. I dont know how much more evidence you need to demonstrate that we've - at best - plateaued out. Transfer windows where we sell and bring in free signings and a punt on kids for the future; table position slipping; players deciding to jump ship. We might recover from 14th to a respectable top half finish of 7th or 8th. Who knows. Regardless, the medication isn't working.

Indeed, it is a carefully balanced combination of the two that is required. Moyes' shrewd and often successful work in the transfer market, building up a good team and squad with a real spirit and team ethic, but taken up a level that extra income would provide. Not Man City style, but if we could spend the kind of money we have on occassion, or Spurs do, more often...

 

[billycopper]

Money doesn't guarantee success. Spot on, Agreed. The counterpoint holds true also though: having little or no money pretty much guarantees you'll achieve nothing of note in this football environment.

I have no objection with your philosophy on football: building up and progressing assuredly to titles/cups is more satisfying than buying them with billions. But when it's applied it's a theory that doesn't work. We need to spend much more than we do if we're to stand a chance of progress now. That evolutionary course we plotted through the noughties has led to a cul de sac. More of the same for the next few years will see us stuck there. I dont know how much more evidence you need to demonstrate that we've - at best - plateaued out. Transfer windows where we sell and bring in free signings and a punt on kids for the future; table position slipping; players deciding to jump ship. We might recover from 14th to a respectable top half finish of 7th or 8th. Who knows. Regardless, the medication isn't working.

I don't think that signings are especially the problem. We've spent more than we normally would do on Bily and Heitinga because we had it available from the sale of Lescott. Spending that extra money has given us no better return on our investment than the more modest sums we spent on Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar and Coleman.

In my opinion, the issue is that we need to evolve our style of play to be able to better break down stubborn defences. We're already got the talent in our squad to do that, but we're more concerned with not losing than winning.

 

[billycopper]

Indeed, it is a carefully balanced combination of the two that is required. Moyes' shrewd and often successful work in the transfer market, building up a good team and squad with a real spirit and team ethic, but taken up a level that extra income would provide. Not Man City style, but if we could spend the kind of money we have on occassion, or Spurs do, more often...

Spurs are a good example. Yes, it would be great to be able to spend the sort of money that they have on Van der Vaart. They have their financial constraints too though. VdV's transfer fee had to be more than halved to allow them to purchase him. Harry would have loved to bring in Huntelaar too, but they couldn't afford him. Instead, he loaned in Gudjohnsen. In order to buy their transfer targets in the next window they will need to raise funds through the sale of fringe players like Keane, Krancjar and Bentley. I'm sure they'd love to go out and spend £15-20m on top class players, but they can't because they're in even more debt than us. It's natural to always want bigger and better, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Philw]

Spurs are a good example. Yes, it would be great to be able to spend the sort of money that they have on Van der Vaart. They have their financial constraints too though. VdV's transfer fee had to be more than halved to allow them to purchase him. Harry would have loved to bring in Huntelaar too, but they couldn't afford him. Instead, he loaned in Gudjohnsen. In order to buy their transfer targets in the next window they will need to raise funds through the sale of fringe players like Keane, Krancjar and Bentley. I'm sure they'd love to go out and spend £15-20m on top class players, but they can't because they're in even more debt than us. It's natural to always want bigger and better, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Exactly, which is where Moyes comes in. Up to now he's generally had to work under tight financial restrictions, finding players at (well) below their true or potential value. Now it would be nice for him to be able to do the same, but aiming a bit higher up the market.

 

[Alan Whittle]

Boom!



Cue the centre half being in the loan shape of a Anthony Gardner.

If he takes Gardner from us I'd bloody drive him to Finch Farm myself!

 

[billycopper]

Exactly, which is where Moyes comes in. Up to now he's generally had to work under tight financial restrictions, finding players at (well) below their true or potential value. Now it would be nice for him to be able to do the same, but aiming a bit higher up the market.

I think that was the intent with Bily and Heitinga, compared to Saha or Jagielka for example. I guess that part of the problem is that, by shopping at the high end of the market, you have to be prepared to pay higher wages. You then get the rest of the squad seeking parity when it's time to negotiate their contract. Wenger's transfer policy at Arsenal isn't dissimilar to our own and they're genuine Premiership and Champion's League contenders, so it can be done.