Thats a strong class and I imagine Pedro' s speech will be awesome but it's ridiculous that Piazza isn't in yet.
MLB 2014
- Thread starter Rook
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I am working in LA at the moment, and they local sports talk guys supported him not getting in. PED stuff...questions thereof.
Randy Johnson was brilliant!! Clements too..
I'm sure the steroid cheats, bonds and mcguire will never get in the HoF..
Rook
Player Valuation: £80m
I can kind of understand Piazza not getting in. Almost every hitter from the 90-00s is going to have a problem getting in.
Tim Raines not getting in is a joke. He was arguably the best NL player in the 1980s. Fun as hell to watch as well, he was one of my favorite players. I had a pretty big Expo fan back then. Kerry of espn laid out an excellent case for him. If you never saw him or only saw him in his heyday he was immense. Like watching a really fast McCutchen. Its a long read but a good read.
TIM RAINES’ HALL OF FAME CASE
At this writing, Raines has come up for Hall of Fame induction
seven times, and been rejected seven times. This is ridiculous.
From 1981 through 1990 with the Expos, Raines hit .302
and posted a .391 on-base percentage (second-best in the NL).
During that time he drew 769 walks, just 17 behind the firstplace
Dale Murphy among National League players in those 10
seasons. Raines stole a league-leading 626 bases, more than
Cardinals speedster Vince Coleman, and nearly twice as many
as the number-three player on the list, Coleman’s teammate
Ozzie Smith. Raines’ 926 runs scored ranked first, as did his 81
triples. His 273 doubles placed him third, behind only longtime
teammates Tim Wallach and Andre Dawson. And by Wins
Above Replacement, Raines was number one. In other words,
brighter by the constant presence of Expos players. A few of them
would show up to teach baseball skills and talk to campers for
$100, maybe $200 for a couple hours; most of them did it for free.
Raines was one of them. The campers sure as hell remember.
“I was six, maybe seven years old, and I remember Raines
being there,” said Brian Benjamin, who along with Elan Satov,
Eric Kligman, and Andrew “Bean” Kensley formed the core of the
Maple Ridge Boys, the group of classmates who accompanied me
to hundreds of games at the Big O growing up. “He was hitting
balls out of the park, onto the street, and I just stood there in awe
watching. Then he came over and talked to us for a long time. I
mean, I loved Tim Raines.”
Unfortunately, and unfairly, the voting members of the Baseball
Writers’ Association of America haven’t loved Raines as much.
the best player in the entire National League from 1981 through
1990—10 full seasons—was Tim Raines.
Never in baseball history, other than in cases of steroids use
(and that’s a whole other hornet’s nest), has a player who was
the best in his league for an entire decade been denied induction
into the Hall of Fame. Raines’ detractors argued that he
was a lesser player after leaving the Expos, and they’re right.
He struggled with injuries and played in 100 games or more just
four more times after the 1992 season. But Raines still put up
fine numbers, with on-base percentages of .401, .365, .374, .383,
.403, and .395 from 1993 through 1998—playing key part-time
roles on two World Series–winning teams in New York. He stole
808 bases in his career, the fifth-highest total of all time (with
all four players above him in the Hall of Fame), and Raines’ 84.7
percent career success rate is the highest ever for anyone with
nearly as many attempts.
Voters’ obsession with round numbers—and only certain
round numbers—has clouded their judgment. Tony Gwynn made
the Hall of Fame on the first ballot with 97.6 percent of the vote.
That always struck me as funny, and not because Gwynn wasn’t
a great player; he certainly was. But Gwynn posted a career .388
on-base percentage and 763 extra-base hits in 9,288 at-bats;
compared to Raines’ .385 OBP and 713 extra-base hits in 8,872
at-bats—with Raines stealing 489 more bases. The two started
their careers and retired at almost exactly the same time, and
the numbers add up to basically identical career value. But
because Gwynn made his living slapping singles, while Raines
was a master of drawing walks, Gwynn and his 3,141 hits sailed
into the Hall, while Raines and his 2,605 hits are still on the
outside looking in. Raines, by the way, also reached base more
times in his career than Hall of Famers Honus Wagner, Roberto
Clemente, Lou Brock, Richie Ashburn . . . and yes, Tony Gwynn
barneygumble
Player Valuation: £60m
One day, we'll see Piazza in, i think he'll make it next time round.
Shame that despite the mets abundance of Pitching talent, we're making zero waves in the hunt for post season. Boo Alderson.
Shame that despite the mets abundance of Pitching talent, we're making zero waves in the hunt for post season. Boo Alderson.
Still boggles the mind that Raines isn't in. Was he difficult to deal with ala Eddie Murray or just under appreciated playing in Montreal?
Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Piazza all face the same basic accusations. I also think Piazza will be the first in. McGwire won't likely ever get in. Eventually, opinion will change on Bonds and Clemens. Those were a pair of bad cheats, but still two of the best ever. The have very few peers.
I also like Raines and Edgar to go in eventually, but so many voters seem to have a bias against these two.
The Piazza "I'm not gay" press conference gets him in the Hall imo.
Yes to both. The comparison to Tony Gwynn illustrates the fact that if they love and you have great numbers, you get in before you do if all you have is the numbers. Bonds was sufficiently a sociopath that, along with the creme and the clear, he'll have to be toes up before he gets in, much like Pete. With Clemons, a lot depends on how he is perceived from here out - he didn't do himself many favors either.
Of course, I'm a guy who always be bitter that Ron Santo couldn't get in until he was dead, so there's that.
Where do you (and everyone else here too) rate Clemens? I've always thought he was one of the best of that generation. He compares pretty similarly to Martinez and Johnson, but had a longer career (no doubt aided by PEDs). I preferred Maddux, but Clemens is certainly a top pitcher.
I agree on all points of your last sentence. Clemens = a highly gifted bellend. Maddux = everybody loves Doggy.
My eternal image of Maddux will be the picture someone posted of him smoking and eating a piece of pizza while on his exercise bike one spring while training with the Cubs. And yes, he wouldn't get that outside corner any more like he did then - the technology has caught up to that. I saw Johnson pitch for us in Jax one year back in the 80's when we were hooked up with the Expos. I wouldn't stand in the box against that for any amount of money.
Rook
Player Valuation: £80m
People think of him as a coke-head (he used in 1981-82, then again a hell of a lot players did, some are even 1st ballot guys like Molitor) and a minor player on the Yankees. The only reason why he's gotten this close is because of the adv metrics guys.
It's a weird one. Watched the Expos quite a bit since they played the Mets often and he was a special, special talent. Hard to believe Biggio gets in before him
Something weird about the era Raines played in--or at least there's a different generation for Biggio. When Raines was great he played before a dead market, but Biggio in the TV era, when all teams could be watched. Plus, Biggio played 2 of the 3 most difficult positions to field (he probably could have covered CF too) but Raines played LF. (Actually, Biggio had about 250 games at CF and Raines about 150, per baseball reference).
But Biggio was also widely adored by fans and journalists, which no doubt shades opinion of him.
Ding, ding, ding, ding. How many times that man broke my heart. (sigh)
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