Messi "best player of all time"

[dholliday]

It refutes a key point of your decision to rank him so lowly. Just saying.

How much of Beckenbaeur have you seen btw? I'm sure it's loads and not just some desperate hipster choice.

Argentina will the only team to lead France in the entire tournament and gave their defence the most to do (mainly down to Messi).

I haven't seen anything of Dixie Dean, either.

Why aren't you sharing your top 10, mate?

But isn't sport all about performing when it really matters?

Exactly this. Also interested in your top 10, Ralph.

Ok, so Argentina's first goal is referred to VAR, which shows Maradona handled it into the England net, the game goes to extra time and England win with a Peter Reid penalty. Maradona doesn't win the world cup and then isn't the best of all time? Reckon you'd say that's pretty daft. It's like people saying Ronaldo is great because Portugal won a final he missed most of through injury, but because they won he's amazing.

What's your top 10, Bruce?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

None of that happened though.

That's kind of my point. The world cup is a cup competition and progress relies on a bunch of stuff that are completely out of the hands of individual players. The logic is that because the technology/rules to show Maradona cheated weren't around he's the greatest, but if they were he wouldn't be. It's silly.

 

[dholliday]

I don't dispute that it is the most sought after honour, I'm disputing that performances in a world cup are enough to judge a player throughout their career. Maldini never won a world cup, but which nutter would argue that he wasn't the best left back ever?

No one's saying judged only on the World Cup, are they? Just that the World Cup has a lot of weighting in the rankings. That's why Pelé always figures high despite only ever playing for Santos and later for New York.

And Roberto Carlos was the best left-back ever.

 

[Little Ralphy]

That's kind of my point. The world cup is a cup competition and progress relies on a bunch of stuff that are completely out of the hands of individual players. The logic is that because the technology/rules to show Maradona cheated weren't around he's the greatest, but if they were he wouldn't be. It's silly.

To be fair though, if they disallowed his first goal, he had plenty of time to change the match in their favour still. Cos he did in fact score an incredible goal shortly after the handball one.

 

[Papa Shango]

No one's saying judged only on the World Cup, are they? Just that the World Cup has a lot of weighting in the rankings. That's why Pelé always figures high despite only ever playing for Santos and later for New York.

And Roberto Carlos was the best left-back ever.

Not having that!

Probably not even Brazil's best ever left back.

 

[Steve0]

To be fair though, if they disallowed his first goal, he had plenty of time to change the match in their favour still. Cos he did in fact score an incredible goal shortly after the handball one.

The fact it was shortly after is significant. Englands' heads must've been all over the place, literally one of the worst decisions of all time...very hard to deal with. Well done to the chunky monkey for taking advantage but he was helped by the ref for both goals, when you think about it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What's your top 10, Bruce?

Not a top 10, but my best team (from players I've actually seen footage of) would be:
Southall
Zanetti
Baresi
Nesta
Maldini

Xavi
Mathaus
Platini

Messi
C. Ronaldo
van Basten

 

[Steve0]

Not having that!

Probably not even Brazil's best ever left back.

I just assumed he was joking tbh.

 

[dholliday]

Not having that!

Probably not even Brazil's best ever left back.

I'm a big Roberto Carlos fan. Massive respect for Maldini, of course. Defensive-wise the Italian was clearly superior, but Carlos famously had a whole different idea of what a left-back could be. Truly revolutionary.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No one's saying judged only on the World Cup, are they? Just that the World Cup has a lot of weighting in the rankings. That's why Pelé always figures high despite only ever playing for Santos and later for New York.

And Roberto Carlos was the best left-back ever.

But you are with Maradona because he didn't achieve much in club football. In club football someone like Platini had a much better record in the same league in the same era.

 

[Papa Shango]

I'm a big Roberto Carlos fan. Massive respect for Maldini, of course. Defensive-wise the Italian was clearly superior, but Carlos famously had a whole different idea of what a left-back could be. Truly revolutionary.

Hmmm dunno, Nilton Santos was doing it 40 years before Carlos was even playing.

Was never a Roberto Carlos fan, I think mainly because everyone said he was boss at free kicks when he wasn't. Obviously he scored a few corkers but more often than not they were awful!

 

[Little Ralphy]

I don't dispute that it is the most sought after honour, I'm disputing that performances in a world cup are enough to judge a player throughout their career. Maldini never won a world cup, but which nutter would argue that he wasn't the best left back ever?

It's no coincidence that the players mentioned for best of all time are dominated by World Cup Winners.

I don't know who the best left back is, but Lahm would have a case to argue. The problem with saying the best left back etc. versus saying the best of all time player, is that more often than not it's match winners who are thought of as the best ever, and it's difficult to be a match winner at left back. Maldini is a cracking player and that MIlan side had an amazing defence, but in fairness you can argue - they'll only really stop you losing the match, it'll still take a match-winner to produce something to win it.

 

[Little Ralphy]

The fact it was shortly after is significant. Englands' heads must've been all over the place, literally one of the worst decisions of all time...very hard to deal with. Well done to the chunky monkey for taking advantage but he was helped by the ref for both goals, when you think about it.

That's the same argument I put forward earlier in the thread about why it's so much easier for players like Messi and Ronaldo in modern football, because if a player mistimes a tackle he'll be booked or sent off it'd mean - heads must've been all over the place - whereas in Maradona's day a defender could almost 'mistime' as many tackles as he wanted even causing harm to the player. In Pele's day it was even worse, the 66 World Cup an obvious example.

 

[Papa Shango]

But you are with Maradona because he didn't achieve much in club football. In club football someone like Platini had a much better record in the same league in the same era.

Both won Serie A twice and the Copa Italia once.

Platini won more in Europe (A European Cup and a Cup Winners cup compared to a UEFA cup) but he was there longer too.

 

[dholliday]

Not a top 10, but my best team (from players I've actually seen footage of) would be:
Southall
Zanetti
Baresi
Nesta
Maldini

Xavi
Mathaus
Platini

Messi
C. Ronaldo
van Basten

That might make a more interesting discussion actually than a blanko top 10. What is your all-time best 11? More to think about too: who could play well together with who, is there enough height in central defence, is the midfield balanced etc

I see you've also limited it to players you've experienced in your lifetime. It's a strong 11, sure, but as you've made them into a team there's not a lot of balance there. You'd have to drop Van Basten and replace with a Makalele or Gattuso.