John Stones

[Khalekan]

Martinez ruined him?

You mean by playing him at a young age, allowing him to learn on the job before getting into the England team and a massive money move to Manchester City and all that comes with that?

The swine!

lol

 

[degsy]

Writing off a 22 year-old kid. Will you ever learn? This thread is gonna be vault central in the near future

and I saw lord lucan sat on shergar talking to elvis at the park round the back from us

re start this if he ever gets a start as DM willya

 

[BigDunc'sFod]

Grade A Whopper.

SNIFF IT STONES

Jesus, is that him at the front of the crowd to the right of the arl fella, sneaky bugger

 

[Papa Shango]

You could basically say that about every player.

Yeah.

I could be a world class defender if I could kick a ball straight, could head a ball without closing my eyes, wasn't about 5 stone overweight and didn't have the turning circle of a tank.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Opinions I suppose. Martinez can be slated for many things but Stones owes him a lot.

Personally I don't think he is that good. His ability on the ball is not good enough to mask his defensive flaws. Comfortable on the ball for a defender but he is hardly Beckenbaur/Sammer/Baresi etc.

You just named 3 of the best defenders ever to play the game there mate. So no, at 22, he is hardly any of them.

However, I do think he has it in him to become one of the modern great defenders. He has certain attributes that you can't teach such as composure, vision, passing ability. When he first came into the team I also saw in him the basics of good defending. Some of his slide tackles where he comes away with the ball were textbook and there were games when he had big named forwards in his pocket.

Unfortunately, he played under a manager who prioritised possession over good defending, and set his out team accordingly. He encouraged him to take risks and to develop the footballing side of his game, rather than coaching him in the art of good defending, positioning, defending set pieces and, above all, decision making. He has now gone to work under a manager who, if anything, encourages that side of his game more. That's fine if that's what you want from your defender, but it does mean that he isn't going to develop into world class.

It's a mute point now as he's already gone, but I believe a year under RK's coaching would have moulded Stones into a much better player, similar to what he has done with Barkley. It probably would have also involved tough love to get him out of his bad habits.

I haven't given up on him becoming a top defender yet. He's still only 22 and time is in his side. But the more he plays under a manager like Guardiola, the harder it's going to become.

 

[Bagpuss]

Interview with Stones saying that Guardiola and Southgate are pretty similar.....not quite sure where Stones is coming from with this, the only similarity I can see is that they both have heads!!!! Absolutely no comparison between either of them as players or managers!!

 

[Papa Shango]

You just named 3 of the best defenders ever to play the game there mate. So no, at 22, he is hardly any of them.

However, I do think he has it in him to become one of the modern great defenders. He has certain attributes that you can't teach such as composure, vision, passing ability. When he first came into the team I also saw in him the basics of good defending. Some of his slide tackles where he comes away with the ball were textbook and there were games when he had big named forwards in his pocket.

Unfortunately, he played under a manager who prioritised possession over good defending, and set his out team accordingly. He encouraged him to take risks and to develop the footballing side of his game, rather than coaching him in the art of good defending, positioning, defending set pieces and, above all, decision making. He has now gone to work under a manager who, if anything, encourages that side of his game more. That's fine if that's what you want from your defender, but it does mean that he isn't going to develop into world class.

It's a mute point now as he's already gone, but I believe a year under RK's coaching would have moulded Stones into a much better player, similar to what he has done with Barkley. It probably would have also involved tough love to get him out of his bad habits.

I haven't given up on him becoming a top defender yet. He's still only 22 and time is in his side. But the more he plays under a manager like Guardiola, the harder it's going to become.

Maybe so but right now he will be lucky to hit the heights of an Alan Gieger or a player of that ilk. What i am saying is that for me you have to be that good to get away with some defensive flaws. Right now he is a jack of all trades master of none. He is not very good defensively and neither is he very good on the ball. He is OK at both. A good footballer for a defender. That is not enough for me.

He is only 22, but that's not that young these days, he has been in the Premier League for a good few years and is a regular International and Champions League player. Sooner or later the penny needs to drop with him.

I don't agree with this bad coaching thing, a defender needs to have the instinct within him to know when to get rid and when to keep hold of possession regardless of a managers instructions. For a seemingly intelligent lad he is thick as mince sometimes when in possession.

I don't like centre backs sliding for the ball by the way. They shouldn't have to. Most sliding tackles I reckon are the result of bad positioning in the first place. Mori puts some cracking slide tackles in for the same reason.

He may very well turn out to be a quality defender, however for that to happen he needs to do it himself and not have people making excuses for him because of whoever his manager is.

 

[Billy Dean]

and I saw lord lucan sat on shergar talking to elvis at the park round the back from us

re start this if he ever gets a start as DM willya

ok mate.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Maybe so but right now he will be lucky to hit the heights of an Alan Gieger or a player of that ilk. What i am saying is that for me you have to be that good to get away with some defensive flaws. Right now he is a jack of all trades master of none. He is not very good defensively and neither is he very good on the ball. He is OK at both. A good footballer for a defender. That is not enough for me.

He is only 22, but that's not that young these days, he has been in the Premier League for a good few years and is a regular International and Champions League player. Sooner or later the penny needs to drop with him.

I don't agree with this bad coaching thing, a defender needs to have the instinct within him to know when to get rid and when to keep hold of possession regardless of a managers instructions. For a seemingly intelligent lad he is thick as mince sometimes when in possession.

I don't like centre backs sliding for the ball by the way. They shouldn't have to. Most sliding tackles I reckon are the result of bad positioning in the first place. Mori puts some cracking slide tackles in for the same reason.

He may very well turn out to be a quality defender, however for that to happen he needs to do it himself and not have people making excuses for him because of whoever his manager is.

I think you're being overly harsh on him. I don't think he is a jack of all trades at all. His ball playing skills as a defender are as good as there is around in the premiership. But I agree, that isn't enough for me either as his defending has to be better. Until it is, Alan Gieger, whoever that may be, probably is his level. Happy to take your call on that.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with your bad coaching comment. Are you just referring to his decision making whilst in possession?. If so, what about the other defensive area's he hasn't received proper coaching on. Do you think he should be intelligent enough to self teach himself these too?

As a fan, I agree that I wished he would just kick it into touch sometimes rather than following a manager's instructions to take risks. But when he does get caught out doing what he's told to do, I blame the manager for this, not the player. There are exceptions of course, like the Park End debacle against Spurs. But I'm not going to start blaming players for the managers bad tactics.

There are also times in a game when a slide tackle is required, and it isn't always the result of bad positioning. To have a good slide tackle in your locker is not a bad thing. I actually love a good slide tackle.

I also think that 22 is still young for a defender as regards both ability and maturity, despite what experience he may have playing at various levels. But that wasn't the point I was making when I referenced his age. It was that there is still time for him to learn how to defend properly and become the world class defender I think he's capable of. But it isn't going to happen without proper coaching and it won't happen f he stays at Man City under Guardiola.

 

[Papa Shango]

I think you're being overly harsh on him. I don't think he is a jack of all trades at all. His ball playing skills as a defender are as good as there is around in the premiership. But I agree, that isn't enough for me either as his defending has to be better. Until it is, Alan Gieger, whoever that may be, probably is his level. Happy to take your call on that.

Yeah I agree his ball playing skills are as good is there is in the Premier League but that doesn't mean much really. David Luiz is the other one in that conversation and we know what his weaknesses are and people have said for years that he could be great if he learnt how to defend more etc. Its not that Stones is great on the ball though, he is great for a defender, that is a big difference for me which is why I find the calls to play him in midfield etc are mad. He gives the ball away far too much.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with your bad coaching comment. Are you just referring to his decision making whilst in possession?. If so, what about the other defensive area's he hasn't received proper coaching on. Do you think he should be intelligent enough to self teach himself these too?

Everything. He is a professional footballer playing for one of the biggest clubs in Europe (ugh..) and a regular International. His basics should already be there. And yes i do think pro footballers should work on their own game. Blaming coaching is such an easy cop out.

As a fan, I agree that I wished he would just kick it into touch sometimes rather than following a manager's instructions to take risks. But when he does get caught out doing what he's told to do, I blame the manager for this, not the player. There are exceptions of course, like the Park End debacle against Spurs. But I'm not going to start blaming players for the managers bad tactics.

See this is why I don't think he will ever live up to his potential. A top class player should instinctively know where to put the ball, when to get rid, when to keep it and more importantly when to sense danger. That is not coachable to me, that is a mental side of the game and he lacks it. The Spurs thing, playing balls back to Robles when under massive pressure, that is not down to tactics. You get rid and argue about it with the manager later.

There are also times in a game when a slide tackle is required, and it isn't always the result of bad positioning. To have a good slide tackle in your locker is not a bad thing. I actually love a good slide tackle.

We all love one. generally though an intelligent centre back will be in the perfect position, a sliding tackle is massively risky for a centre back as it takes the player out of the action if they miss it.

I also think that 22 is still young for a defender as regards both ability and maturity, despite what experience he may have playing at various levels. But that wasn't the point I was making when I referenced his age. It was that there is still time for him to learn how to defend properly and become the world class defender I think he's capable of. But it isn't going to happen without proper coaching and it won't happen f he stays at Man City under Guardiola.

That baffles me to be honest. He is a 50M experienced player! He shouldn't still need teaching how to defend properly! He will be playing for Hull or someone in a few years time if he doesn't get his act together.

And yes he does have potential. At some point though he needs to realize it and people need to stop making excuses for him.

 

[TommyDavo]

Notice Sky reporting him as having the best passing and dribbling stats for a defender, but ignoring the elephant

 

[BlueLee]

Gutted when he left......chuffed now though. £50 million haha!!

 

[The Cowboy]

Notice Sky reporting him as having the best passing and dribbling stats for a defender, but ignoring the elephant

Even in this brave new world of David Luis style defending, passing and dribbling are the bottom two attributes you should be looking at in any central defender. Top of the list should be:

Positional discipline
Heading
Tackling
Communication with team

Don't have them and you can have all the passes and dribbles in the world, you'll still be a rubbish defender.

 

[Donald Twain]

Even in this brave new world of David Luis style defending, passing and dribbling are the bottom two attributes you should be looking at in any central defender. Top of the list should be:

Positional discipline
Heading
Tackling
Communication with team

Don't have them and you can have all the passes and dribbles in the world, you'll still be a rubbish defender.

Excellent post , straight from the hip!