Hugo Chavez dead.

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johnnydawg68 said:
Well that's why I said "mini". Look by any measure, the economy of Venezuela is a wreck. Inflation is rampant and that hits the poorest the hardest.

Bottom line is Venezuela has gone through an unprecedented period of hitting the oil lottery. ANY government could have expanded services for the poor, education, health care etc. All of which I'm for of course. What I object to is the notion that somehow Chavez's strategy of turning the media into a single voice of propaganda for him (which he did), imprisoning and demonizing ANYONE who disagrees with ANYTHING you do (which he did), blaming all of your troubles (all of which were self inflicted) on THE EVIL IMPERIALIST UNITED STATES, cozying up with the worst human rights abusers in the world was somehow the ONLY way to help the poor of Venezuela is simply absurd on it's face.

Oh and by the way, he gave out plenty of handouts to the rich who played ball through fat government contracts, and favorable access to exchange rates. The idea that he was really some socialist hero is laughable.

He gave lots of money to the poor. Good for him. He didn't care about the poor when he pursued policies that drove inflation sky high, robbing the poor most of all of their spending power. He didn't care about the poor when the homicide rate skyrocketed (mostly affecting poor communities) and did NOTHING about it.
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You keep talking about inflation rate. Inflation now is 22%. Prior to 1999 when the Bolivarian regime took control it was running consistently at 50-60% for a decade. As for the oil 'lottery': well that was there and available for the preceding regimes to use for the poor also. As you say, 'any government could have expanded services to the poor'...but they didn't did they? This one did. And you have to drop this nonsense about 'single voice of propaganda'....when there's a large privately owned and critical media it makes no sense whatsoever to argue that. And as for 'cosying up to the worst human rights abusers in the world': you're having a laugh - look a bit closer to home for leaders in the west who chummy up to some of the worlds despots to gain trade and military advantages (you know it's the case).

I think what's happening here J-dawg is that you come from a different culture to us. We're western Europeans and many of us have no problem with accepting that economies can be both mixed and planned and that there's a need for government to step in and socialise areas of our lives. Admittedly that's been eroded over the years and Thatchers Kinder in Britain would no doubt identify more with what you're saying than I am. But I think that's where the friction is here. No one's under the illusion Chavez was a saint. In fact personally, I think anyone seeking power as a figurehead of a movement like that must have a massive ego and be a bit of a belter on the sly. No mind, though, they do strong men leadership in that part of the world, so maybe that's just culture shock too.

Bottom line: I cant understand where the heat comes from you toward this regime. I know you mentioned you visited there so maybe it's personal. It must be, because I certainly dont see much of your usual objectivity on display here.
 
johnnydawg68 said:
Sure. I'm just pointing out he's not a left wing saint.
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To echo what Dave has said I certainly don't think the guy was a saint. Indeed to get to that sort of position in a country like that he has almost certainly commited all sorts of crimes and misdemeanours. But the point is he gave the country's base population a huge leg up in terms of health and education. And we're not talking a small minority here but a wholesale change in the life prospects of the bulk of the population.

Also we should remember that this oil resource is not about to expire tomorrow. There's a long future to be extracted from it - and a native population with better health and education to make the most of it.

He also called George Dubya a donkey so to be fair you'd be hard pressed to construct any argument that would see me criticse the man!
 
davek said:
You keep talking about inflation rate. Inflation now is 22%. Prior to 1999 when the Bolivarian regime took control it was running consistently at 50-60% for a decade. As for the oil 'lottery': well that was there and available for the preceding regimes to use for the poor also. As you say, 'any government could have expanded services to the poor'...but they didn't did they? This one did. And you have to drop this nonsense about 'single voice of propaganda'....when there's a large privately owned and critical media it makes no sense whatsoever to argue that. And as for 'cosying up to the worst human rights abusers in the world': you're having a laugh - look a bit closer to home for leaders in the west who chummy up to some of the worlds despots to gain trade and military advantages (you know it's the case).

I think what's happening here J-dawg is that you come from a different culture to us. We're western Europeans and many of us have no problem with accepting that economies can be both mixed and planned and that there's a need for government to step in and socialise areas of our lives. Admittedly that's been eroded over the years and Thatchers Kinder in Britain would no doubt identify more with what you're saying than I am. But I think that's where the friction is here. No one's under the illusion Chavez was a saint. In fact personally, I think anyone seeking power as a figurehead of a movement like that must have a massive ego and be a bit of a belter on the sly. No mind, though, they do strong men leadership in that part of the world, so maybe that's just culture shock too.

Bottom line: I cant understand where the heat comes from you toward this regime. I know you mentioned you visited there so maybe it's personal. It must be, because I certainly dont see much of your usual objectivity on display here.
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Here's what it is. I got myself a Master's degree in European History, and one of my main focal points was Nazi Germany, WWII, etc. So I've read a LOT on Hitler's Germany. Always asking "how did it happen"? Hitler got elected too. Now was Chavez Hitler? Of course not. But I'm very sensitive when people who lead countries start eroding democracy by rigging the game in their favor or eliminating them altogether. And, in my view, Chavez did everything to keep himself in power. I'm especially sensitive when people of the left show a disregard for democracy because it makes us look bad.

In short, he disappointed me big time.
 

Ah, so that was all just a load of tripe.

Roger that.

For the record, if you think Fox News is bad, try watching ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, & MSNBC.
 

johnnydawg68 said:
Here's what it is. I got myself a Master's degree in European History, and one of my main focal points was Nazi Germany, WWII, etc. So I've read a LOT on Hitler's Germany. Always asking "how did it happen"? Hitler got elected too. Now was Chavez Hitler? Of course not. But I'm very sensitive when people who lead countries start eroding democracy by rigging the game in their favor or eliminating them altogether. And, in my view, Chavez did everything to keep himself in power. I'm especially sensitive when people of the left show a disregard for democracy because it makes us look bad.

In short, he disappointed me big time.
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An elected leader using the democratic process to rig the game in their favour is the criteria needed to bring in the spectre of Hitler? Ok, David Cameron has just tried and failed to rig all the constituency boundaries in Britain to ensure a Conservative majority in 2015. Hitleresque also?

This is all getting a bit ridiculous now. I take it that the points to charge the Chavez regime have all been exhausted now and this is what we're left with?

Was it/is it perfect? No. Was it/is it the murderously corrupt regime portrayed? No. Just a different way of operating than the western powers would want. That's pretty much it when you strip all the claim and counter claim away.
 
having lived and worked in Caracas at the back end of the nineties and still maintain contact with some of the lovely people I met there, I think those that are glad he's gone are more numerous and certainly influential than those who mourn. After years of preparation the Oil majors and their government puppets jockeying for position and it will probably be very messy for a while, I just hope that the Venezuelan people don't suffer.

p.s. fittest women ever, anywhere
 
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