Europe...

peteblue · November 2, 2014

I see Angela Merkel is giving the usual do as I say or I won't back you to the UK.

I think the time has come for our politicians to tell this lot that we're off. No more financial contributions and more importantly we won't take any part in any defence of Europe.

We can still trade with everyone, being a nuclear nation we can more than defend ourselves on our own, let Germany and co get on with it and if Russia wants to give them a kick, so be it. Europe has cost enough lives from the UK for no benefit to ourselves..........

rascal · November 2, 2014

Merkel will have each one of our political leaders kegs around their ankles giving them massive wedgies.

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

Isn't she just saying that the free movement of people is fundamental to what the EU is all about, if you don't like it, don't stay in it?

ilikecheese · November 3, 2014

Pete's sound as they come, but he's kinda havin a mare

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

I don't really get what Cameron is doing to be honest. The problem, as I see it, isn't that people come here, it's that people come here and don't work. If migrants come to Britain and support themselves then really, who cares? We don't have control over EU migration, but we do have control over our welfare system, so why doesn't he limit welfare to new migrants? Wouldn't that be an easier way of achieving what he wants?

Walken · November 3, 2014

Bruce Wayne said:
I don't really get what Cameron is doing to be honest. The problem, as I see it, isn't that people come here, it's that people come here and don't work. If migrants come to Britain and support themselves then really, who cares? We don't have control over EU migration, but we do have control over our welfare system, so why doesn't he limit welfare to new migrants? Wouldn't that be an easier way of achieving what he wants?

perhaps because that isn't necessarily the case, and immigration financially benefits the UK, so we need the dough. But that wouldn't play well with his supporters, given their general leanings, so he can't come out and say it

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

Walken said:
perhaps because that isn't necessarily the case, and immigration financially benefits the UK, so we need the dough. But that wouldn't play well with his supporters, given their general leanings, so he can't come out and say it

I fully agree with you in that immigration is by and large enormously beneficial to the country. He doesn't seem clear on what he's trying to achieve though. Rationally I can't see any reason why he'd care about people coming here and supporting themselves in whatever way, unless it was xenophobia, which is very sad indeed. If it's people coming here and relying on the state to support them, then that seems something they have complete control over, so why bother with this thing with the EU?

Walken · November 3, 2014

Bruce Wayne said:
I fully agree with you in that immigration is by and large enormously beneficial to the country. He doesn't seem clear on what he's trying to achieve though. Rationally I can't see any reason why he'd care about people coming here and supporting themselves in whatever way, unless it was xenophobia, which is very sad indeed. If it's people coming here and relying on the state to support them, then that seems something they have complete control over, so why bother with this thing with the EU?

I certainly dont have the answers mate, immigration has become the convenient topic for this up and coming election, it's far from being the most important issue in the country in my mind, but that's what plays right now, and it makes for a tricky balancing act for cameron

atrottel · November 3, 2014

We don't have any money to pay your pensions because we spent it all on bailing out my mates, so you are all going to have to work until you are 67+ and we will have to sell the NHS to more of my mates. But it's all the fault of the Muslims and the Europeans. Err, innit?

So carry on with your 'banter' and your reality TV and just leave us to protect you from Johnny Foreigner as we always have so well.

(This has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the Blair/Cameron/Murdoch party.)

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

Walken said:
I certainly dont have the answers mate, immigration has become the convenient topic for this up and coming election, it's far from being the most important issue in the country in my mind, but that's what plays right now, and it makes for a tricky balancing act for cameron

The sad thing is that UKIP seem to have defined the grounds for the debate too. I haven't heard any of the other parties using actual facts to support their case. And it's hardly as though there aren't plenty out there for them to use. Not a great advert for politicking at all.

atrottel said:
We don't have any money to pay your pensions because we spent it all on bailing out my mates, so you are all going to have to work until you are 67+ and we will have to sell the NHS to more of my mates. But it's all the fault of the Muslims and the Europeans. Err, innit?

So carry on with your 'banter' and your reality TV and just leave us to protect you from Johnny Foreigner as we always have so well.

(This has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the Blair/Cameron/Murdoch party.)

That's the daft thing. I pointed out in the election thread that pensions = around 2/3 of the current welfare budget, so having a portion of the workforce that generally leave the country before reaching retirement age would (you'd think) be seen as overwhelmingly positive. As above though, none of the parties are using actual logic to discuss this. It's like the old argument about stupid people dragging you down to their level and then beating you with experience. UKIP are ace at the emotion heavy, fact light stuff. The others should be countering it with easily available facts to show how valuable immigration is rather than trying to fight the same idiotic game UKIP are playing.

Jags..class · November 3, 2014

why cant we just limit the benefits for new applications, maybe you are entitled to the benefits after 2 years of work, and those who want to work will be able to access the country more easily. We don't have the power to kick people out straight away.

Don't know how true this is
"But as soon as an illegal reaches UK soil they can then claim asylum in this country, which would be an enormous problem if the frontier is moved back to Dover.

atrottel · November 3, 2014

Pensions are still paid out to those not living there any more (at the moment and with problems with certain countries not getting the increases) although I agree that the strain that the elderly place on other services would be eased.

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

Jags..class said:
why cant we just limit the benefits for new applications, maybe you are entitled to the benefits after 2 years of work, and those who want to work will be able to access the country more easily. We don't have the power to kick people out straight away.

I'm not 100% but I seem to recall that was what our welfare was like to begin with, ie more of an insurance scheme that you could draw out of during hard times, with more available the more you'd paid in. Something like that. I think quite a few countries around the world have something similar to that now. Singapore has probably gone furthest down that road.

http://www.economist.com/node/15524092

Bruce Wayne · November 3, 2014

atrottel said:
Pensions are still paid out to those not living there any more (at the moment and with problems with certain countries not getting the increases) although I agree that the strain that the elderly place on other services would be eased.

Really? So a retiree on the Costa del Sol still gets a UK state pension?

atrottel · November 3, 2014

Bruce Wayne said:
Really? So a retiree on the Costa del Sol still gets a UK state pension?

If you have paid up your contributions, of course. Why would you not?

Added: as long as the UK (or England or rump Britain) remains in the EU, it is part of the EU pensions system which, when you come to retirement age in the relevant country, you then go to their equivalent of the state pensions people, tell them where you have worked in the EU and they then collect the pension contributions from those governments and are in charge of disbursing them to you.