ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

[Khalekan]

I can vouch for this part of the account. The father of one of my staff, Steve Sharp, was the Liverpool supporter stabbed after the game. It was a hell-and-all time for Steve. A mate, Ian Miller, who worked in another Liverpool office was attacked by an Italian swinging a bicycle chain, and he said the only reason it did not wrap around his throat was because he raised his arm and manged to block it. He showed me the marks/scars of it. He said the Italian Police just stood by and let the Italian fans attack the Liverpool fans.

I write the above in no defence whatsoever with regards to events at Heysel. Simply to tell the story of what I know and heard at the time of events in Rome. If you want to know where I worked at the time, I'll be happy to give you further details.

It doesn't really matter what happened in Rome, does it?

Heysel was in another country, in another time, against a team which was not Roma.

For Dalglish to use events in Rome several years before as some sort of excuse for the murderous antics of his fans in Belgiium is disgusting.

It is a phenomenon which abounded in Nothern Ireland throughout the Troubles and is known as "whataboutery".

If one side committed an atrocity against the other, rather than face the shame of it, many on the side committing the atrocity would try to contextualise it by saying "ah, but what about what happened at......" (insert an atrocity which the other side had inflicted on your mob).

Of course, the official RS "memorial" to Heysel, a little plaque nailed on to a wall, states the "39 football fans lost their lives when a wall collapsed".

It doesn't mention the fact that the fans were Juventus fans and that the wall collapsed because of the rampage of Liverpool fans.

And it goes on to lament the fact that thousands of Kopites had their trip ruined by watching so meant oeopke due in front of them.

So Dalglish is voicing what LFC believes about Heysel at the very highest level.

A despicable football club.

 

[Minimeister]

I can vouch for this part of the account. The father of one of my staff, Steve Sharp, was the Liverpool supporter stabbed after the game. It was a hell-and-all time for Steve. A mate, Ian Miller, who worked in another Liverpool office was attacked by an Italian swinging a bicycle chain, and he said the only reason it did not wrap around his throat was because he raised his arm and manged to block it. He showed me the marks/scars of it. He said the Italian Police just stood by and let the Italian fans attack the Liverpool fans.

I write the above in no defence whatsoever with regards to events at Heysel. Simply to tell the story of what I know and heard at the time of events in Rome. If you want to know where I worked at the time, I'll be happy to give you further details.

Like a few United fans copped for a beating after the first leg, I'm sure a few kopites took a beating last night. It's always happened in football. The only difference is no other club has murdered 39 opposing fans.

 

[LinekersLegs]

What is "the sun song"?

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/a...d-away-fans-sing-hillsborough-anfield-tweets/

 

[peteblue]

Remember Dalglish's piece he wrote after Heysel? it was Roma's fault, and everyone else's:

"What became known as the Horror of Heysel arose partly from events that occurred in Rome. Before and after the triumphant European Cup Final, Liverpool fans suffered horrendous abuse at the hands of Italian fans. Our supporters were attacked in alleys. People I had left tickets for at Rome's Olympic Stadium said they had been hammered with stones. Coaches were ambushed by Roma fans tossing bricks at them. The police were escorting buses but they still didn't get much protection. A year later, the seeds of chaos bore fruit. Some of those Liverpool fans in Brussels would have been in Rome the year before. When Italian fans started throwing rocks and stones again at the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, the Liverpool supporters would have remembered Rome."

"We learned afterwards that some Juventus fans at the unsegregated end had been throwing stones at Liverpool supporters, which was why some of our fans ran at them on that terrace in Heysel. Liverpool fans were blamed for killing the Italians but people forget the circumstances. On previous away trips, Liverpool fans had behaved themselves as well as anyone. So why was Heysel different? The stadium, the organisation and the attacks on Liverpool fans in Rome were factors in the Heysel disaster."

I can't remember him writing this. However, he is probably correct with his first paragraph. His second paragraph in seeking to lay some of the blame on the Italians actually does the opposite in that he admits that the RS 'ran at them' and it was as a direct result of them 'running at them' that the Italians died. His term 'ran at them' is like saying that German troops 'ran at' the French.......technically correct but a little understated.........

 

[catcherintherye]

Are you about 11? Definitely pre-pubescent with your well thought out responses.

Well yeah I suppose anyone could say stuff like "Every kopite I spoke to" on an internet board, sounds legit Watson.

No self pity going on here just a realisation that situation needs to and should stop between us and the mancs but I can`t see that happening any time soon.

So if the mods want to ban me then I won`t be around to respond but I won`t koffin (what exactly is that!) anywhere.

I thought your contribution was reasonable enough mate. I am normally the first to knock you lot, but in fairness last weeks United fans loudly mocked Hillsborough. From what everyone says Liverpool ignored that. Last night it sounds a bit more 50/50.

Overall United do seem to sing about Hillsborough far more than Liverpool about Munich though. It's a fairly regular song at Goodison as well. I do think though you guys really let yourselves down around the Suarez affair. Apologising and encouraging a racist with some frankly pathetic excuses for why he wasn't a racist.

You are right about 1 thing though that it needs to stop. I don't know how that needs to happen. I think it would be great for people like Dalgliesh to get together with Alex Ferguson and make a clear statement, like Ferguson did a couple of years ago why any fan doing this didn't represent the football club.

In many ways I couldn't care less if you don't do this. It reflects badly on two football clubs I hate. However there are lots of people who (particularly when it comes to Hillsborough) who are still alive who remember the event. They have been through enough and shouldn't have to keep having it mocked over and over.

 

[PITA]

Oh look, Liverpool fans almost causing more fatalities at a football match.

It's in their DNA. There's no question of that. Happens far too frequently. A club followed for the most part by ordinary decent everyday people (with cultist tendencies, like), but also by a significant number of homicidal maniacs who cant distinguish between the importance of life and death at football games.

I just heard one account there from a Liverpool fan at the game last night and he said a copper was hanging by a thread in the stands just short of toppling over to a certain death below after his fellow fans were lunging at him to get a few digs at Man Utd supporters trying to get them out of their section.

Are UEFA going to wait for this lot to kill people again or are they going to act and give them a punishment that makes that club sort out its mess? A behind doors home leg is the minimum they should impose.

They might do something novel and wait until a wall 'collapsed' and then ban all English clubs.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Agree, the RS took a beating in Rome, they got it from the Police as well, it was more Dalglish using this as part of the reasons behind Heysel.

I agree with what you say above. There is no valid reason behind what happened at Heysel. Period...

 

[Old Blue 2]

Like a few United fans copped for a beating after the first leg, I'm sure a few kopites took a beating last night. It's always happened in football. The only difference is no other club has murdered 39 opposing fans.

I am not disputing any of the above. I was simply relaying the particular experiences I encountered in 1984 through work. That's all.

 

[PITA]

RS fans were throwing objects at the disabled fans last night.

Chants are one thing but to purposefully target those who are unable to defend themselves is quite another. Sick twunts.

No-one should have to defend themselves at a football match. This includes disabled, able-bodied, men, women, children, old or young. It's a football match FGS.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

I can't remember him writing this. However, he is probably correct with his first paragraph. His second paragraph in seeking to lay some of the blame on the Italians actually does the opposite in that he admits that the RS 'ran at them' and it was as a direct result of them 'running at them' that the Italians died. His term 'ran at them' is like saying that German troops 'ran at' the French.......technically correct but a little understated.........

There was a lot more to his piece to tell you the truth, and he does make a couple of valid points in it.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/dalglish-heysel.shtm

 

[helpimonfire]

No-one should have to defend themselves at a football match. This includes disabled, able-bodied, men, women, children, old or young. It's a football match FGS.

Well said.

 

[rascal]

No-one should have to defend themselves at a football match. This includes disabled, able-bodied, men, women, children, old or young. It's a football match FGS.

Well said, I guess it just confirms their Tory tendencies.

 

[roydo]

There was a lot more to his piece to tell you the truth, and he does make a couple of valid points in it.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/dalglish-heysel.shtm

But.

These Juventus fans felt that Liverpool were responsible for the deaths of their friends. How could we be?

Then saying it was Thatchers fault English clubs were banned.

Not a word of contrition, or any acceptance that Liverpool played a part in the tragedy.

Everyone elses fault. UEFA, Belgium FA, the ground, Roma, Thatcher. Take your pick. But not them.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

No-one should have to defend themselves at a football match. This includes disabled, able-bodied, men, women, children, old or young. It's a football match FGS.

All fair game to that lot...Even their own fans.

 

[catcherintherye]

Like a few United fans copped for a beating after the first leg, I'm sure a few kopites took a beating last night. It's always happened in football. The only difference is no other club has murdered 39 opposing fans.

The problem is though the attitude of "copping a beating" "always happening in football" as an acceptable thing leads to a culture where incidents like Heysel can happen.

What happened last night at United was not spontaneous violence that is out of the ordinary. It is the logical extension of the culture of entitlement that both clubs operate too. The idea they are above the rulebook, automatically bigger than everyone else and have a divine right to success. When they finish out of the top 4 they meet up for a private meeting to try and get teams who have learnt the right to play in it like Leicester & Tottenham removed. Like most entitled oppressive groups they also try to claim victimhood effectively (i.e. their is a conspiracy against them from the FA which both accuse) much like how the whites in the Southern States of America, the Afrikaners in South Africa or Zionists in Israel claim victimhood.

For United they think they can go around singing about people being unemployed, and the death of innocent fans spectators and regularly sing a song "we're Man United we do what we want". For Liverpool that involves trying to re-write political language when your star player has ushered racist terminology, and elevating him to cult hero status as a result, or a minority singing songs about Munich. Both go round putting banners up at the others ground, in a school like pathetically cringe way.

The key points in this are both clubs hearty actively facilitate this entitled behaviour, by telling their fans they are special and above the rules of common decency. The whole way they've behaved around a mickey mouse cup last 16 game, as if it were not only a big game, but the biggest game of the season has been utterly embarrassing. If you want to tackle the behaviour you have to tackle the belief both fans have that they are special, and if they do wrong it's everyone elses fault and a massive conspiracy to get them. Contrast that behaviour with the dignity that the families from HJC and how figures like Matt Busby behaved and it really is chalk and cheese.

It is not complicated, when in teaching if you let a child behave how they liked and have no consequence for their action even the most well behaved child would soon descend into poor behaviour. It is the same with these fans. It is not "a few bad apples" any longer. It is a corrosive culture that anything they do is acceptable. They are now ying and yang to each and it can never work, as they both can't be completely innocent. If they want to stop them, both clubs need to challenge their very central question that they are special or better than others. They won't do that though, it will be the "few bad apples" approach while ignoring the structural faults of both clubs.