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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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I have now pal, cheers for the link.

I think when we next win a derby you will really start to see an implosion. Let alone if we have a good summer transfer window.

Absolutely. The key to this is the tone he starts with, and how riled he gets when the interviewer mentions Collymore even bringing to debate the idea their supremacy may go. Any notion of challenge is causing a noticeable emotional reaction from them.

After the derby win he has chosen to go out on the offensive. If we get ahead of them, or win one, in spite of what he says you can see he will find that very difficult.

What underpins it all though, is the knowledge deep down, irrespective of the jokes or the paper tiger impressions that they are very aware of whats happening at Everton and feel threatened by it.
 

They are all clinging onto what they thought was a universal truth 'Klopp is a world class manager'. They've slowly come to the realisation that FSG are not interested in competing with the big 3. FSG got burned by successive managers inane transfer dealings and poor performance (how did Dalglish and Rodgers with Suarez and Gerrard in their team finish behind Moyes' Everton twice?!) and are now very reluctant just to bow to fans demands. They bailed them out of certain administration, have taken an absolute hit on transfer losses, have financed part of the ground expansion at eye watering prices. They're not interested in giving any more to a club that wastes so much money.

With no world class players left (after any good ones have all been sold) they're now clinging to their last branch of hope that Klopp is a world class manager and will take lesser players to the top. They're now in a situation where that is on a knife edge. It will be two seasons without a trophy, finals have been lost, big semi finals lost, transfers have been just ok. If he scrapes them into top 4 they will cling onto him as saviour for a bit longer. If he doesn't in a season when Mourinho and Guardiola are finding their feet then this illusion will shatter.

They are starting to look at us with the superior academy, plans for a superior stadium, and are starting to realise we may have means in the future to challenge under Moshiri that they don't have under FSG.

They have been in long term decline since 2009, they refuse to accept it though clinging onto short term lifts like Suarez and now Klopp. If Klopp fails though where do they go? The squad is getting worse and worse to the point where 1 in 3 Coutinho is now their best player, he was in the support cast as recently as 2013. Their run in really is crucial, if Klopp can deliver CL it may halt the slide, if he doesn't what do they try next? We're on the up meanwhile and it's hacking them off.

As always great post mate! Without going too much into tubby Atkinsons content he is completely wrong that Everton need to buy 12 players. They finished with 62 points last season, added 3 lads (Wijnaldum, Matip & Mane) to the team and alongside the momentum that has been built will likely break the top 4 and almost certainly the top 6. We will likely finish above 62 points, perhaps above the 66 that would have been required last season. His assertion of what Everton need to do is not dialectical.

Everton's strength was how efficiently we spent money. Our weakness was never having enough. Now we seemingly have more (owner input as well as massively increased sponsorships/revenue streams) our challenge is to see if we can keep the prudency of spending money when the values are increased. This is why Steve Walsh remains an essential figure.

In spite of what they say though, they are not prudent with money. It's telling they compare themselves with Manchester United who seem to almost be throwing money away as evidence of their prudency. Yes when you compare yourselves to 89 million on Pogba any transfer seems sensible. In the real world though, they have spent close to 1 billion in the last 10 years to win a Carling Cup. The Everton team on Saturday was bought for 1 third of the cost of their team and paid well under half. The fact we have kept ourselves in and around them with those figures they must be thinking if we close the gap off the field there is a chance they begin to get passed, if we do it well. These are not my opinions by the way, the Financial Times did a metric test on this and found Everton to be 4th in Europe and 1st in the PL for points per spend, with Southampton and Spurs being close. Liverpool are nowhere.

For them Klopp seems to be the answer. He's the man who fronted a club like Dortmund who also over performed. FSG have been striving for value for money yet whats becoming clearer is that their model isn't suited to football. Likewise whats also clear is Klopp was as I indicated the front man for a successful operation, as opposed to the singular genuis of it. Tuchel for example and his team are not outperforming the side Klopp left behind. He was a great manager, but in a successful club.

I think FSG have lost interest. The longer it goes on without making the key breakthrough the more money they pull back. The fans are getting irritated as it's been seen the last 2 years that budgets have been gradually reduced. They are clinging to the hope that this summer will see a big spend. The defenders of FSG are now using that, in the way reformist politicians try to buy off the workers with the idea that in the future everything will be perfect.

The Klopp debate will remain one sided. He is a big name manager (not the best in thew world as they allege, in honesty probably not even in the top 10) nor are "the whole of Europe shitting their pants at the fear of Klopp and Liverpool" as some have alleged (I really don't think Real Madrid, Barcalona or Bayern are worried about Klopp or have much idea who Liverpool are) but for where they are and their project he is a long way ahead of Kenny, Hodgson and Rodgers. Given the sort of club they think they are he suits them great as well. There is certainly disgruntlement from some fans, but the overriding whipping from his fanboys to get the fans on side will continue and probably gets stronger. What will be interesting though, is how far open criticism of FSG will be contained.

The refusal to build the Anfield Road end is part of a direct provocation with sections of the fans. If they don't rebuild it there will be plenty of anger. For us that is good, if they lose interest, ah la Hicks and Gilette or Randy Lerner you can see the decline coming. Thats my hope anyway. I think you will see a lot of contradiction at this point. FSG have great PR and all happily keep LFC as an investment, happy to keep them as a EPL club and load any costs in doing this onto the debt. They may even loan the club the money themselves and cream off the interest as they have done with the new stand.
 
All managers have flaws mate, and very few of them ever seem to act to get rid of that flaw.

Just from the outside - Klopp favours a small squad and little rotation - in order that he can drill it into the first team his pressing tactics, IF he rotates then it simply won't be as effective as the players won't be as cohesive together

As for the training, it has to be intense for that style of play (less intense training = less effective at it in game)

My guess with Klopp is - the player injury breakdowns that come with the system in an acceptable price for the results it has gotten him over his career so far. it also may explain his preference to sign early 20's players or bring them through the academy etc, less wear and tear on them so can maybe eek another season or two out of them before they start to break down physically.

Managers in all walks of life, particularly football also have their way of doing things. They are often very stubborn and will rinse and repeat. See David Moyes at Sunderland. See the same mistakes by Martinez with us. Klopp is also an ideologue who is very committed to a particular way of playing. He may be able to change, but who's to say he'd be any good at implementing that? When Rodgers went away from his core principles at Liverpool, he got a short term reprieve but each time a side worked them out the humiliation got greater (finishing in a 5-0 HT scoreline against Stoke who subsequently declared).

Klopp is not a Mourinho, or even a Guardiola who has worked in a variety of countries in a variety of jobs prior to his appointment. He's not even a Koeman. He has his way of playing. It suited a particular time and climate in a Germany league that was quite weak but rebuilding it's core around young players. He benefitted from that. Outside of that brief window there is little to suggest he knows how to adapt his thinking.
 

Really good points there mate.

Will add a couple of other things to it as well, they trumpeted the lad they got on a free from Germany as one of the best cb's in the league, based on a good couple of months and when he started breaking down with injuries, they ignored that there was all that about him being injury prone and missing games with little niggles from his time in Germany, if you like, he has a reputation as a bit of a fanny - there's a good reason he was available on a free - he's Sturridge mark 2.

Also when players in a Klopp system start to pick up a knock here and there, it will only ever become progressively worse, he puts a huge strain on players, and once they start to break down due to that, then they will never be fully over it and will just become injury prone

Can see it if you look at how many Dortmund players in their mid 20's (or more accurately - after a couple of seasons working under Klopps system) seemed to become alarmingly prone to picking up multiple injuries per season, and even after they left it followed them around and it increases over time.

Hummels - 18 separate injuries from 14/15 season to this
Gundogan - 16 separate injuries in the same time period
Subotic - 11 in the same period
Reuss - 21 injuries in the same period of time
Gotze - 11 in that period (in his final year at Dortmund though he had 7 separate injuries)
Bender - 21 separate injuries since 14/15
Sokratis - 18 in that time frame

Soon as they have played a couple of seasons under Klopps system, the players literally started to break down, 3 of those 7 above are all but finished at top level now due to persistent fitness issues whilst still in their 20's (and this is by no means a biased sample as just took 7 high profile players who played multiple seasons under Klopp)

Yes obviously there is exceptions to the rule - like Lewandowski for example, but some players are just naturally very very resilient.

Yes the injuries point is important. I remember some absolute belter (Paul Machin from redden TV) saying (and I paraphrase as accurately as I remember) "the great thing from Klopp is he throws out and disproves all the modern nonsense about modern football. That you have to rest players. That players can't play two days a week. That lads can't play with an injury. That there's a red zone players can't play in."

Of course this remained the popular analysis adopted by most of the cult. There is a kind of anti-intellectual, workerist cynicism that pervades most football clubs but is particularly prevalent with them. Managers don't know what they re doing. Fifa tells you who the best players are. Just like in Fifa a lad can play if he's tired or injured, you just have not avoid pressing the R1 sprint button too often. A large part of it with Liverpool is they were successful in an era of "real men" when none of this modernity rubbish existed.

Klopp kind of fed into that nonsense. Yet there's a reason why highly qualified nutritionists, biologists, coaches, fitness experts, PT's will devise programs and monitor things closely. If you could just send lads out injured everyone would do it. They haven't found a niche in the market.

As for the names you mentioned, you have given just about every top player he's worked with at Dortmund. I even remember Kagawa struggling to be the same player on leaving. Mikhatarian also has question marks around him (and also stated he felt Mourinho was a far better manager than Klopp). That injury list is startling, I know Goetze is almost finished now, and this was a lad people thought would get to Messi's level.

I saw us do this in the 90's. Lads like Michael Ball, Parkinson and Danny Williamson's careers ended too early on the back of not listening to their bodies. They will get lots injuries. The ethos says it all, that they haven't immediately sent Mane to an operation and have waited, hoping he might be able to get on the pitch for them for 1 or 2 games. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an underlying issue there, but I doubt it will get chance to heal properly under Klopp. I have a sense Lallana and Henderson may never come back again to the level they were at.

He left Dortmund in a massive mess. I don't think people fully grasp this. They were bottom in the second half of the season. he went on a fantastic run just in time and they ended up half way up the league. Klopp then bailed, deep down I think he knew he came too close that time. He has taken far better sides than this Liverpool team into strife.
 
They are all clinging onto what they thought was a universal truth 'Klopp is a world class manager'. They've slowly come to the realisation that FSG are not interested in competing with the big 3. FSG got burned by successive managers inane transfer dealings and poor performance (how did Dalglish and Rodgers with Suarez and Gerrard in their team finish behind Moyes' Everton twice?!) and are now very reluctant just to bow to fans demands. They bailed them out of certain administration, have taken an absolute hit on transfer losses, have financed part of the ground expansion at eye watering prices. They're not interested in giving any more to a club that wastes so much money.

With no world class players left (after any good ones have all been sold) they're now clinging to their last branch of hope that Klopp is a world class manager and will take lesser players to the top. They're now in a situation where that is on a knife edge. It will be two seasons without a trophy, finals have been lost, big semi finals lost, transfers have been just ok. If he scrapes them into top 4 they will cling onto him as saviour for a bit longer. If he doesn't in a season when Mourinho and Guardiola are finding their feet then this illusion will shatter.

They are starting to look at us with the superior academy, plans for a superior stadium, and are starting to realise we may have means in the future to challenge under Moshiri that they don't have under FSG.

They have been in long term decline since 2009, they refuse to accept it though clinging onto short term lifts like Suarez and now Klopp. If Klopp fails though where do they go? The squad is getting worse and worse to the point where 1 in 3 Coutinho is now their best player, he was in the support cast as recently as 2013. Their run in really is crucial, if Klopp can deliver CL it may halt the slide, if he doesn't what do they try next? We're on the up meanwhile and it's hacking them off.

I want to buy in to what you've said but it's hard to believe it at this moment in time. I'd argue that they are still favourites for 4th spot ahead of Man United and Arsenal at the moment. Having said that, they actually have one of the easier run ins, but that won't necessarily equate to loads of points for them as they often struggle against the smaller sides. If they miss out on the top 4 this season then I think they could struggle in the next few seasons, but my fear is that they will scrape in. No matter how poor I regularly think some of their players are, and how much I rate some of ours, they so often outdo us, especially in the Derby. Other than 04-05, and 13-14, we've never genuinely challenged for a top 4 spot in the last 15 years.

Not trying to make out they're amazing as I don't believe they are but as good as all this positivity off the pitch is for us, I hope we actually start to show it on the pitch from next season onwards or they will carry on outdoing us, beating us in the derby and laughing at us for getting our hopes up.

Noticed this post on RAWK though:

'Evertonians are hilarious, for some mad reason I was just reading GOT's thread on last nights match, and they are trying to recal a 'worse liverpool midfield' than Can, Wijnaldum and Lucas
lmao.gif


I know we all like to play down the talents of our rivals, but that's comical
grin.gif
2 players who'd walk into their team every day of the week, and are so far and ahead of any talent the have in midfield. And another who, come to think of it, is still better than most of their midfield right now despite the fact his legs aren't the best anymore!'

That's one of the most deluded views I have read on there. I'd have Schneiderlin, Gueye and Barkley ahead of Can and Wijnaldum. Of the players from their team I rate, those 2 aren't among them.
 

Bloody hell. It's taking me 2 minutes to scroll through every page.

I see it's now our fault that The Marquis de Sadio hurt himself in tackling Baines. If put it down to Karma myself after all the rejoicing over Seamus.
 

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