ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[catcherintherye]

There’s still a large number thinking that they’re going to 05 this season and magic there way back out this hole they’ve dug themselves into. They live in permanent belief that the football gods always shine on them. I suppose why wouldn’t they when they’ve not been punished for anything in their history and a bad season for them is finishing in Europe with a trophy. Reality might hit home hard for a few the second they’re out the CL and it becomes clear to any of them that can count that they’re not going to be making the top 4.

Yes agree with that, symbolically that holds true for them. And again, in fairness, they have that lived memory of overcoming the odds in that competition.

I am not as bullish as you on their chances, but I would agree there have some opportunity. In site of what they say, they don't actually have many key positions injured, it's almost exclusively just at CB. If they can click into gear they are still a dangerous team, and probably better than the one that fluked it on 05.

I want them out too, I get the argument if they go deep it distracts them and causes more injuries but I think that ship has sailed now. I actually think that the CL run is probably whats holding the team, fans, clubs and management together currently. I think it will completely implode once they get knocked out, and for us the sooner the better.

I said a few weeks back, this feels like that Rodgers last seaosn, but to be fair, under Rodgers, the collapse only really happened at the end of a season and he got some respite by the seasons break (like a boxer getting the bell). He was never right next year, and they had a bit of a go, but he was done, though it did stop a complete collapse. For Klopp there's still 11 games left. It was a run of 8 points from 9 games at the end of that season, but the trigger moment was losing in the FA Cup which cemented to their minds there was no chance of a trophy or redemption.

So the sooner they get knocked out the better. As long as they're not given another easy draw next round, should be then.

 

[number4.]

The first worm to turn looks like that Salah

i'd argue Mane downed tools a few weeks ago. I read the looney comments from Owen, that he is no longer "going down" when fouled in the box because he doesnt want Salah to get the pen.

IMHO that is absolute rubbish, but what it might point to is Mane having lost the ruthless hunger of two years ago, which is far more significant than some in house squabbles

 

[ToffeeDan]

Searching high and low to see if, after the record breaking unbeaten run... they now have an unwanted record for goal drought. It's 2 draws (1-1 - Mane 12th minute, 0-0) followed by 0-1, 0-1, 1-4 (pen), 0-2, 0-1 and 0-1 .. I make that 708 minutes since they've scored a goal at home from open play.

 

[catcherintherye]

He'll be gone if they dont reach the CL final.

Klopp yesterday made a big deal of this not being anything like his Dortmund melt down. It has a lot of similarities with it. He ran Dortmund into the ground and he's done the same with Liverpool. Dosing them with gallons of "caffeine" laced drinks has given them an edge they couldn't sustain. He has been using a quasi-legal regime that the human body rebels against after a period - then the injuries pile up. No question.

If he gets them into the CL next season he will survive, but drag it on a bit. If he gets to a final it mightbe enoygh for him to "Rodgers" the situation, essentially offer up his staff as sacrificial lambs, and limp on wounded for a bit next season.

If he goes out in the next 2 round, which providing he doesn't get a really easy draw should be a formality, then I don't see him lasting the season.

I always take great notice to what people say and dont say. When he brings up Dortmund, you're asking yourself, why is he even mentioning Dortmund if it's not relevant? It's clearly in his mind,

The patterm is the same, almost to the game. The only thing I'd add, is the drop off started at the start of a season at Dortmund, whereas this one was very much mid season. He "stabilised" dortmund mid season after a winter break, but crucially the stabilisation process was still well below the starndard level Dortmund where at. He picked up 31 points from 17 games which was around 15% down on the previous season and around 25% down on the peak year. That was still with a lot of financial support relative to the league, that I doubt he will have at Liverpool (at Dortmund he was still the 2nd best backed manager in the league by that point, he will not be in the top 6 next year, and could be easily in the bottom 6).

Thats a best case scenario for them. 25% off peak is around 73/4 points, 15% off a decline season for them (being around maybe 75-80 points) has them 63-66 point range. Thats kind of where I see the best case scenario with Klopp, if he's give lots of money getting.

The worst case scenario is rock bottom hasn't been reached yet and it keeps getting worse.

The key for me though, is at Dortmund he sort of turned it around to the point he stabilised things, there's no guarentee he can repeat that trick here.

 

[davek]

If he gets them into the CL next season he will survive, but drag it on a bit. If he gets to a final it mightbe enoygh for him to "Rodgers" the situation, essentially offer up his staff as sacrificial lambs, and limp on wounded for a bit next season.

If he goes out in the next 2 round, which providing he doesn't get a really easy draw should be a formality, then I don't see him lasting the season.

I always take great notice to what people say and dont say. When he brings up Dortmund, you're asking yourself, why is he even mentioning Dortmund if it's not relevant? It's clearly in his mind,

The patterm is the same, almost to the game. The only thing I'd add, is the drop off started at the start of a season at Dortmund, whereas this one was very much mid season. He "stabilised" dortmund mid season after a winter break, but crucially the stabilisation process was still well below the starndard level Dortmund where at. He picked up 31 points from 17 games which was around 15% down on the previous season and around 25% down on the peak year. That was still with a lot of financial support relative to the league, that I doubt he will have at Liverpool (at Dortmund he was still the 2nd best backed manager in the league by that point, he will not be in the top 6 next year, and could be easily in the bottom 6).

Thats a best case scenario for them. 25% off peak is around 73/4 points, 15% off a decline season for them (being around maybe 75-80 points) has them 63-66 point range. Thats kind of where I see the best case scenario with Klopp, if he's give lots of money getting.

The worst case scenario is rock bottom hasn't been reached yet and it keeps getting worse.

The key for me though, is at Dortmund he sort of turned it around to the point he stabilised things, there's no guarentee he can repeat that trick here.

He turned it around second half of the season when players came back from injury at Dortmund. Klopp says that wont happen this time because of long term injuries.

If you're FSG and you read that you start to reach for the coach contacts book.

 

[ToffeeDan]

They have a massive opportunity to recover with no game between 15/3 and 3/4

 

[catcherintherye]

i'd argue Mane downed tools a few weeks ago. I read the looney comments from Owen, that he is no longer "going down" when fouled in the box because he doesnt want Salah to get the pen.

IMHO that is absolute rubbish, but what it might point to is Mane having lost the ruthless hunger of two years ago, which is far more significant than some in house squabbles

It's a good point. I put on here a few days ago, Mane and Firmino's goal scoring is down, and down over quite a long period. I believe it's now 1 in 13 for Mane and 3 in 16 or something for Firmino. It looks to be like both are hitting the wall, whereby doing all the running Klopp requires, and being goal machines just can't be done, and they are not doing neither. One will be 30 in a couple of weeks, the other is 31 when the new season starts. Mane in particular relies on pace and physicality. These things do decline. But declines (as with progress) are rarely a straight line, it is often masked until a couple of factors come together and you get a sharp drop.

With the age they are at, I'm not sure they are getting much better and the sort of numbers of 15+ league goals for both need to probably be discounted now. They won't be returning to peak.

I would say their issue, is all 3 of them have been run into the ground, and probably now need to be given the "James" role here, of essentially playing as (in their case) a number 9 and poaching goals. The problem is, carrying 1 player is difficult, but carrying all 3 is almost impossible, especially in Klopps system. This is epecially so when Thiago is also a passenger in midfield. They have become really easy to play against. I said in my derby reflection peice, they just look slow, weak and small to me all of a sudden.

As for the final point, I agree wholeheartedly as well. This looks to be a squad who have probably climbed everest and are happy with their lot now. Hunger is a very hard thing to replicate in life, and I imagine once the league was won, the realise valve of pressure probably made it very hard to click it back up, especially as many over achieved to get there, and in honesty are approaching or the wrong side of 30. It doesn't have to be a huge drop off, but the small bit that has been lost makes a big difference in a game that is really about marginal gains.

 

[catcherintherye]

He turned it around second half of the season when players came back from injury at Dortmund. Klopp says that wont happen this time because of long term injuries.

If you're FSG and you read that you start to reach for the coach contacts book.

Sorry Dave, just so I understand this right, he's saying Dortmund were fine because players came back from injury, but Liverpool won't be as the injuries are long term? Am I interpreting that correctly?

 

[catcherintherye]

They have a massive opportunity to recover with no game between 15/3 and 3/4

Last time they had a big break though, it did no good, in fact it made it worse.

 

[ToffeeDan]

Last time they had a big break though, it did no good, in fact it made it worse.

Yes, perhaps, but the 19 or 20 days between Wolves and Arsenal games means they can't use the Knackers Yard.. I meant Card... as an excuse.

 

[Carloblues]

He's not getting sacked anytime soon.

Just won their first league title in 30 years and won a champions League, the fans still love him and would kick off if he got sacked regardless if he gets in the champions League or not.

 

[DownOnTheUpside]

He's not getting sacked anytime soon.

Just won their first league title in 30 years and won a champions League, the fans still love him and would kick off if he got sacked regardless if he gets in the champions League or not.

Can't see him there next season

 

[mccole]

Youve had a nightmare here...

Chill Piers

 

[Thomasc]

The first worm to turn looks like that Salah

Amazing that they are turning on their best player too.
Watch out for the venom he will be picking up soon.
They will be accusing him of all sorts. Willing to bet they throw faking injury in the CL final, despite then starting that pathetic petition to get Ramos banned from Football.
I’ve tried to be more mellow about the fans of our red neighbours over recent years, but their weird cult behaviour always ends up luring me back in.

 

[John from Bootle]

He's not getting sacked anytime soon.

Just won their first league title in 30 years and won a champions League, the fans still love him and would kick off if he got sacked regardless if he gets in the champions League or not.

Disagree.

It's not just a case of them 'not getting in the Champions League.' is it? They currently look like a team who can't win enough matches to even stay in the top half of the table.

If they keep losing, it becomes inevitable. He will go. Even the Newcastle (for example) manager comes under massive pressure for a run of form like this.