Cycling thread

I believe because of much more stringent testing that those who can excel will do, and the margin to catch up has been lessened somewhat. Every generation produces their equivalent super athletes, (side note re rugby) sometimes we get lucky and a couple are there simultaneously, then there's the historic comparisons. Science technology and medicine (nutrition & recovery) have advanced so much that we're effectively watching the evolution of a sport akin to amateurs becoming professional. (that's the best way I had to describe the transition in terms of successful performance).

(There has been a problem* in rugby for a long time where under 18's? can't be tested for chemical enhancements, but the science says steroids given during growth pre 18 have a lasting long term effect. I'd be fascinated to know the selection process and nurturing of the next crop of promising cyclists and whether designer roids dosed out early allow for a sudden explosion of peak performance at previously unheard of earlier years in a career)

[Sadly, until another sport tops the notoriety of cycling for doping then it's always going to be the big question. And yes there are still questions about Big Mig.]
I suppose this is where I'm confused/skeptical. Since the 80s we've never had people who are both challenging in GTs and classics, and doing so all year round. Even in the Sky era where Wiggins and Froome were successful in week-long stage races early in the season, they never crossed over into the classics and dominated those as well. They were also racing much slower than those riding in the EPO era, which for all the accusations after the jiffy bag thing lent a sense that this was a clean era, especially as the winning margins were generally smaller and they weren't doing the kind of crazy long attacks you'd see from Pantani, Armstrong, FvdB et al. It was just dieseling up climbs at a tempo.

Now, not only are the times getting back towards (and past) those from the EPO era (having ridden the entire race much faster), but those who were hugely successful even a few years ago are nowhere to be seen anymore. The likes of Kwiato, Degenkob, Van Avermaet, and Sagan are generally absolutely nowhere these days. Ditto the likes of Carapaz, Yates, et al in GTs. We saw yesterday that Pidcock, who is clearly a very good rider, was just ridden off of Remco's wheel on a seemingly unchallenging bit of road. Sky was obviously famous for their "marginal gains" stuff, and while that was mocked, it's hard to see that nutrition and equipment and all that has gone through the roof in the space of 3-4 years and they've been left way behind.

It reminds me a bit of Pantani's 99 Giro, where the rest might as well not have bothered turning up such was his dominance. Of course, the legend has it that it was this dominance that contributed to his failed test as people weren't happy with it.
 

cheat, but don't rub our noses in it?
athletes winning both classics and GT's at remarkably younger ages by comparison suggests an alteration in youth setup. gone are the days of earning your spurs and proving a capable all rounder for future years contention. Maybe the scene had got stale and young blood turned up and shook the old dynamic on its head. maybe the sky dominance is a factor in todays success as teams/doctors looked for significant advantage earlier and so got specimens to trial and test on much earlier. If this is the way, the lessons learned with the current crop of successes will lead to greater improvement next era again. Records set now could end up smashed a mere 5 years later and the whole of history aghast at winning performance and the margins thereof. I can't help visualise that ben johnson run.
 
cheat, but don't rub our noses in it?
athletes winning both classics and GT's at remarkably younger ages by comparison suggests an alteration in youth setup. gone are the days of earning your spurs and proving a capable all rounder for future years contention. Maybe the scene had got stale and young blood turned up and shook the old dynamic on its head. maybe the sky dominance is a factor in todays success as teams/doctors looked for significant advantage earlier and so got specimens to trial and test on much earlier. If this is the way, the lessons learned with the current crop of successes will lead to greater improvement next era again. Records set now could end up smashed a mere 5 years later and the whole of history aghast at winning performance and the margins thereof. I can't help visualise that ben johnson run.
That seemed to be the sense with Pantani, almost like the peloton is okay with the charade as long as the spoils are spread around a bit. For the record, I don't have the first clue what could be happening, just that what we're seeing is something I've never seen before in my years of watching the sport. It feels incredible and when the guy leading the UAE team headed up Saunier Duval, who were arguably the wildest of wild west teams back then it surely raises questions, but the likes of GCN are far too close to the sport to ask any, so it feels a bit like we're crossing over from sport into the sports entertainment realm of WWF.
 
That seemed to be the sense with Pantani, almost like the peloton is okay with the charade as long as the spoils are spread around a bit. For the record, I don't have the first clue what could be happening, just that what we're seeing is something I've never seen before in my years of watching the sport. It feels incredible and when the guy leading the UAE team headed up Saunier Duval, who were arguably the wildest of wild west teams back then it surely raises questions, but the likes of GCN are far too close to the sport to ask any, so it feels a bit like we're crossing over from sport into the sports entertainment realm of WWF.
Absolutely right. Its insane and frankly unbelieveable.
This evolution could be acceptable if the climbtimes were slower than Contadors and more in line (still a bit faster accounting for scientific advancements) with Hinaults days.
These days, 2011 Alberto Contador wouldnt even make top 5 in the tour.

Mad. Worst of all: nobody dares to ask questions. You're right about Van Avermaet. He had a smashing period 2017-18 and suddenly he cant follow with the 22 year olds.
 

Been trying to get started on the Giro but had loads going on. Are those boys getting proper juiced out of their minds? More than normal I mean? Maybe they’ve developed the next superPED that no one can detect yet.

I can handle a bit of juicing but if they’ve gone hardcore on it this time I might swerve. Not sure where my line is.
 
Been trying to get started on the Giro but had loads going on. Are those boys getting proper juiced out of their minds? More than normal I mean? Maybe they’ve developed the next superPED that no one can detect yet.

I can handle a bit of juicing but if they’ve gone hardcore on it this time I might swerve. Not sure where my line is.
The rumour is that the Liverpool FC medical team have been brought in to advise the UCI lol
 
Been trying to get started on the Giro but had loads going on. Are those boys getting proper juiced out of their minds? More than normal I mean? Maybe they’ve developed the next superPED that no one can detect yet.

I can handle a bit of juicing but if they’ve gone hardcore on it this time I might swerve. Not sure where my line is.
It is the perennial problem with cycling.
I love the sport but hate the cheats.
When Wiggins win at the Tour was shown to be shady I lost a lot of faith in the so called clean up
Froome maintained he was Mr Clean but the timings on some of the climbs were ridiculous .
And it just seems to be getting worse.
As soon as the next GT winner is exposed I will lose all interest.
 
Been trying to get started on the Giro but had loads going on. Are those boys getting proper juiced out of their minds? More than normal I mean? Maybe they’ve developed the next superPED that no one can detect yet.

I can handle a bit of juicing but if they’ve gone hardcore on it this time I might swerve. Not sure where my line is.
No idea tbh and I'm not sure the racing to date really says anything either way. Remco did look super strong in the prologue, but it's pretty rare for the winner of the prologue to win the whole race so we'll see. The Giro nearly always has uncertainty, and the major summit finish this week has 4 metres of snow lining the road at the moment.
 

It is the perennial problem with cycling.
I love the sport but hate the cheats.
When Wiggins win at the Tour was shown to be shady I lost a lot of faith in the so called clean up
Froome maintained he was Mr Clean but the timings on some of the climbs were ridiculous .
And it just seems to be getting worse.
As soon as the next GT winner is exposed I will lose all interest.
I’d said it all along with team sky, claiming it was down to Brailsford’s training methods. Ok fellas whatever you reckon. I’d rather every single one of them juiced rather than just some of them. At least if they all juiced we’d find out who the best was. Mind you they probably are all juiced.
 
I’d said it all along with team sky, claiming it was down to Brailsford’s training methods. Ok fellas whatever you reckon. I’d rather every single one of them juiced rather than just some of them. At least if they all juiced we’d find out who the best was. Mind you they probably are all juiced.
This is what I'm struggling with tbh, as during the Sky years, the times and general speed were down on what had gone before, and certainly on the EPO era, which would seem to be in line with the fact that it was somewhat cleaner.

Now, they're back up toward the speeds from the EPO era on the climbs, while the overall speed of the races is at record levels. It doesn't really seem feasible to me that training and equipment are "so" much faster than they were during the Wiggins/Froome era given that we're talking a huge leap in just a few years.
 
This is what I'm struggling with tbh, as during the Sky years, the times and general speed were down on what had gone before, and certainly on the EPO era, which would seem to be in line with the fact that it was somewhat cleaner.

Now, they're back up toward the speeds from the EPO era on the climbs, while the overall speed of the races is at record levels. It doesn't really seem feasible to me that training and equipment are "so" much faster than they were during the Wiggins/Froome era given that we're talking a huge leap in just a few years.
This is the crux isn’t it, I read about it when exploring Mr Armstrongs misdemeanours. If they genuinely stopped doping times would have to come down. Lycra and road bikes haven’t advanced that much over the last 20yrs.
 
This is the crux isn’t it, I read about it when exploring Mr Armstrongs misdemeanours. If they genuinely stopped doping times would have to come down. Lycra and road bikes haven’t advanced that much over the last 20yrs.
I'm always a bit sceptical of claims made by bike manufacturers etc., but you "might" have a claim that equipment has progressed quite a bit since the Armstrong/Pantani days. I suppose my confusion with it all is that Froome and his generation were both a fair bit slower than both the EPO era and the current generation. Now the current crop seem to do extraordinary things in pretty much every race. It's certainly exciting to watch, but history suggests that cycle racing should be somewhat boring and won by small margins, with extraordinary performances usually driven by something else. Maybe this time really is different to all the other times.
 

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