Changing Perceptions

[AndyC]

I think a good showing in the Euros will enhance his chances of going where he wants to go - and will give us a good price.

Then I suggest that he's spouted off too much in recent weeks and put himself under pressure.

Had he kept his trap shut and performed well, bids might have come in anyway. Now, he moreorless HAS to perform well and produce... and thus, the ball on his immediate future remains very much in Evertons' court.

 

[Gwladys St. Glory]

I'm honestly not so sure we will lose him.

Two main reasons... unless a bid of monumental proportions comes in say £60 million+ or... Everton themselves encourage it... and despite his talking, I wouldn't think the club would encourage suitors until late in the season.

Everything on Rom is a bit premature right now...only a select few even know if he fits in to Koeman's plans. He may feel he can get something comparable that will work just as well, for half the price we can sell him for. Whether that's true or not, time will tell...but there's the fairly large possibility of an upheaval brewing or maybe not. Whatever happens, I hope it makes me feel as good as it did when we got him on a permanent.

None of us have put up with all the nonsense to see the possibilities open up and to then go backwards.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Making moves for rivals players is something we should be looking at.
I have always believed that Everton should be looking at fringe players from the big boys, for arguments sake im thinking of Trippier for cover of Coleman, Ward-prowse to cover our midfield, or even the likes of Jeremy Menez from Milan to cover Rom for example. Attacking teams like PSG, Juventus, Bayern, Ajax and Dortmund would give everyone the impression that we are not going to just sell to big teams but actually we want to buy players from them for a change.

I think the Kane and Alli examples may be a bit too far but as always until we behave like a big club we may always be seen as a sleeping giant.
I for one am the first to admit im very cynical by all things Everton, making a move for big teams players may help in 'changing perception'.

 

[catcherintherye]

@catcherintherye @brieverton

I think the key priority (as i always say!) are the young players:

Lukaku +Barkley + Deulofeu + Stones (possibly also besic) i see almost as a first wave of players who are potentially extremely good players.

If Lukaku etc all stayed then thats 4 positions in the team taken. We can then look at the youth and personally i think its fair to say that Davies, Connolly, Kenny, Pennington etc etc etc are all able squad players....

We can then 'make do' with some other 1st team regulars (such as Coleman and Baines) but are massively lacking in the spine of the team (mourinho for example has said that when he joins a club he builds the spine).

GK -- CB -- CM -- CF are all needed as 1st choice players, meaning real quality e.g Butland, Leno or Rico for the GK not an above average one like Cillissen. I will be very interested in these positions as with £100mil you can really do alot of damage.

We also need a LW of course but i imagine we will see (hopefully) some dross moved on to create funds for this player.

Not a revolution by any stretch but a new spine which simply must include top quality. This will provide a stable platform for not only the team but also for the youth to grow into...

I agree with you that we need to be targeting players who improve our first 11. We have a lot of squad fillers currently, arguably too many and we can use younger players to fill the squad out.

I think a spine is important but Mourinho doesn’t always bring in in one go, Sometimes it often comes from what he already has (see Terry & Lampard at Chelsea). I am not 100% convinced on Kane and I don’t see much point in signing people to make a statement.

As regards the goalkeepers it’s interesting you don’t put Cillesen into that list. I would have included him in any list of young(ish) goalkeepers who have a lot of potential?

Finally I do garee with you that we need a big clear out. I think Martinez put it off in part because he wanted to keep the unity of Moyes players. The last 6 games showed that to be a fallacy though, the Moyes grit has been finally lost. More should have been moved on over the previous 2 seasons and now is time to do that. For me it’s almost as important as incomings.

Someone said even with the 4 lads we’ve released we have a squad of 25 players, excluding young players. Without European football it is just too many. Mourinho himself likes smaller squads. I think the temptation will be to have squads that are too big.

Ultimately if you want to pick a player you have to replace a player. You’ve got people wanting us to sign 5/6/7 not sell too many plus integrate 4-5 young players. The numbers don’t add up.

The squad is also lobsided and unbalanced. We have loads of right footed wide players and left sided defenders. More left backs than Centre halves. It is a mess. Lads like Mcgeady, Lennon & Kone need to be moved on as well as Niasse, Cleverley and Oviedo.

 

[Ashtonian]

So, all the fanfair and we've ended up with Koeman and Gibson. Not exactly the statement i was hoping for (so far).

If we are looking to make a splash then rather than taking a manager off Southampton why dont we go after Spurs' top players?

The teams that usually win the league over the premier league era have always had English players and Man City immediately signed Milner, Barry and others before making pushes for the title.

We currently have 2 marketable stars (excluding lukaku) in Stones and Barkley. Its clear to me that we will be improving our marketing and seeking to improve our "Global Brand" with these two and other players.

What we've seen with Koeman is that money talks. For me, Spurs are in the same boat as Leicester just with better individuals and more money BUT can they compete consistently with Utd,Chelsea or City who can throw hundreds of millions around?

We apparently have a fortune to spend (in fact an ITK posted we could actually afford Messi if we wanted) so why not move on players who could raise our profile but also improve us as a team and massively weaken a couple of other teams?

A big statement for me would be to move for Jack Butland to go alongside Stones and Barkley as England Internationals.

At that point people start to take notice and we then put big money down for Eric Dier and Delle Alli. Additionally when Lukaku is sold we add some money and move for Kane.

That to me is massive ambition. The players all have at least 10 seasons in them and with Butland signed we would have 3 England Internationals + 3 more with the Spurs players. Perhaps they wouldnt (all) come but it would be an attraction to add up to 4 England players not only for branding, improving the team but also surely they would buy into this if the money and ambition were there?

So, if we do have massive money and want to change the clubs perception to become a global brand as well as achieving success then why not make huge moves like this and our money down to attract them?

there is only one thing i can say to this.

This isn't fifa. Spurs players for example are not going to move here, because we are crap compared to them. football doesn't work like it does in your head mate, no player worth signing goes from 2nd in the league team to 11th, nor will they move from any DECENT champions league club if they are anywhere near the first team. So yes, we can sign players from crap CL clubs but not first teamers for any club with a relaistic chance of getting to the knockouts.

So yeah, just accept we are a crap midtable team right now. come next may, we might be much more better than that but until we actually get the results we need, then it is just speculating right now on what may or may not happen.

there is ambition and there is simply pulling players out of the air and thinking they will roll up here because we were boss in the 80's.

 

[Steve Wigan]

I agree with you that we need to be targeting players who improve our first 11. We have a lot of squad fillers currently, arguably too many and we can use younger players to fill the squad out.

I think a spine is important but Mourinho doesn’t always bring in in one go, Sometimes it often comes from what he already has (see Terry & Lampard at Chelsea). I am not 100% convinced on Kane and I don’t see much point in signing people to make a statement.

As regards the goalkeepers it’s interesting you don’t put Cillesen into that list. I would have included him in any list of young(ish) goalkeepers who have a lot of potential?

Finally I do garee with you that we need a big clear out. I think Martinez put it off in part because he wanted to keep the unity of Moyes players. The last 6 games showed that to be a fallacy though, the Moyes grit has been finally lost. More should have been moved on over the previous 2 seasons and now is time to do that. For me it’s almost as important as incomings.

Someone said even with the 4 lads we’ve released we have a squad of 25 players, excluding young players. Without European football it is just too many. Mourinho himself likes smaller squads. I think the temptation will be to have squads that are too big.

Ultimately if you want to pick a player you have to replace a player. You’ve got people wanting us to sign 5/6/7 not sell too many plus integrate 4-5 young players. The numbers don’t add up.

The squad is also lobsided and unbalanced. We have loads of right footed wide players and left sided defenders. More left backs than Centre halves. It is a mess. Lads like Mcgeady, Lennon & Kone need to be moved on as well as Niasse, Cleverley and Oviedo.

Lennon? Are you sure? Oviedo? Cleverley? All good squad players, even if we increase the quality requirement for first choicers.

 

[catcherintherye]

Lennon? Are you sure? Oviedo? Cleverley? All good squad players, even if we increase the quality requirement for first choicers.

It does seem harsh Steve, but in many ways it's a by product of an unbalanced squad that has too many players in it. We currently have 22, before you mention Galloway, Browning & Pennington. That takes us to 25 before we have any signings. It's my own view that our squad is too big. I think Martinez's big issue was signing average squad players and not getting rid of enough. It meant he was forever chopping and changing. I'd much prefer us to have a more streamlined squad.

On top of that Right wing we currently have 3 (McGeady, Deulofeu & Lennon with Dowell/Mirallas who can play there) with left back having Baines, Oviedo, Garbutt & Galloway. I think we could do with a cutback in both areas. For me I'd like to see Garbutt given an opportunity and don't want to block Galloway's pathway so I can't see how we couldn't move Oviedo on if the offer was right. Similar for Lennon. If push came to shove Coleman could play further forward as well.

They are good squad players Steve, I am happy with all 3 and if they stay I won't be disappointed but I do think we need a clear out. Do you see where I am coming from with my logic? I think a lot of the easy targets have gone but we will need to cut a little deeper. Even if Stones/Lukaku leave we have 23 senior players, but maybe 5-6 you'd imagine Koeman will want to bring in. I think there are just too many players about. I also want to clear a pathway for lads like Davies, Dowell, Kenny, Ledson to have an opportunity.

 

[PeterMeter]

How did you get to 22? This is 27 but with Holgate and Kenny, neither of which I think will see much time, instead of Browning. Also features a ton of forwards who probably are not good enough, don't think either of Niasse, McAleny and Leandro Rodrigues fit the bill. And Tarashaj I don't think will hit the ground running.

Goalkeeper
1 Joel Spain 17/06/1990
Defender
3 Leighton Baines England 11/12/1984
23 Séamus Coleman Ireland 11/08/1988
25 Ramiro Funes Mori Argentina 05/03/1991
32 Brendan Galloway England 17/03/1996
29 Luke Garbutt England 21/05/1993
30 Mason Holgate England 22/10/1996
6 Phil Jagielka England 17/08/1982
43 Jonjoe Kenny England 15/03/1997
8 Bryan Oviedo Costa Rica 18/02/1990
38 Matthew Pennington England 06/10/1994
5 John Stones England 28/05/1994
Midfielder
20 Ross Barkley England 05/12/1993
18 Gareth Barry England 23/02/1981
17 Muhamed Bešić Bosnia-Herzegovina 10/09/1992
15 Tom Cleverley England 12/08/1989
12 Aaron Lennon England 16/04/1987
16 James McCarthy Ireland 12/11/1990
Aiden McGeady Ireland 04/04/1986
19 Deulofeu Spain 13/03/1994
Forward
9 Arouna Koné Ivory Coast 11/11/1983
10 Romelu Lukaku Belgium 13/05/1993
11 Kevin Mirallas Belgium 05/10/1987
14 Oumar Niasse Senegal 18/04/1990
Conor McAleny England 12/08/1992
Leandro Rodríguez Uruguay 19/11/1992
Shani Tarashaj Switzerland 07/02/1995

Does need quite a lot of trimming though.

 

[Nymzee]

Oviedo and Lennon can go for sure but I'd keep Cleverley for his versatility. Not the most talented in the squad but he's tidy and puts a shift in wherever you ask him to play. Plus he's young still; can still be taught new things by a better manager.

 

[AndyC]

How did you get to 22? This is 27 but with Holgate and Kenny, neither of which I think will see much time, instead of Browning. Also features a ton of forwards who probably are not good enough, don't think either of Niasse, McAleny and Leandro Rodrigues fit the bill. And Tarashaj I don't think will hit the ground running.

Goalkeeper
1 Joel Spain 17/06/1990
Defender
3 Leighton Baines England 11/12/1984
23 Séamus Coleman Ireland 11/08/1988
25 Ramiro Funes Mori Argentina 05/03/1991
32 Brendan Galloway England 17/03/1996
29 Luke Garbutt England 21/05/1993
30 Mason Holgate England 22/10/1996
6 Phil Jagielka England 17/08/1982
43 Jonjoe Kenny England 15/03/1997
8 Bryan Oviedo Costa Rica 18/02/1990
38 Matthew Pennington England 06/10/1994
5 John Stones England 28/05/1994
Midfielder
20 Ross Barkley England 05/12/1993
18 Gareth Barry England 23/02/1981
17 Muhamed Bešić Bosnia-Herzegovina 10/09/1992
15 Tom Cleverley England 12/08/1989
12 Aaron Lennon England 16/04/1987
16 James McCarthy Ireland 12/11/1990
Aiden McGeady Ireland 04/04/1986
19 Deulofeu Spain 13/03/1994
Forward
9 Arouna Koné Ivory Coast 11/11/1983
10 Romelu Lukaku Belgium 13/05/1993
11 Kevin Mirallas Belgium 05/10/1987
14 Oumar Niasse Senegal 18/04/1990
Conor McAleny England 12/08/1992
Leandro Rodríguez Uruguay 19/11/1992
Shani Tarashaj Switzerland 07/02/1995

Does need quite a lot of trimming though.

Invite interest in Oviedo, Kone, McGeady, Gibson and Niasse... may be even Lennon, whose value has surely increased, but if Gerard re-discovers his best form, AL will only limited opportunities.

 

[catcherintherye]

How did you get to 22? This is 27 but with Holgate and Kenny, neither of which I think will see much time, instead of Browning. Also features a ton of forwards who probably are not good enough, don't think either of Niasse, McAleny and Leandro Rodrigues fit the bill. And Tarashaj I don't think will hit the ground running.

Goalkeeper
1 Joel Spain 17/06/1990
Defender
3 Leighton Baines England 11/12/1984
23 Séamus Coleman Ireland 11/08/1988
25 Ramiro Funes Mori Argentina 05/03/1991
32 Brendan Galloway England 17/03/1996
29 Luke Garbutt England 21/05/1993
30 Mason Holgate England 22/10/1996
6 Phil Jagielka England 17/08/1982
43 Jonjoe Kenny England 15/03/1997
8 Bryan Oviedo Costa Rica 18/02/1990
38 Matthew Pennington England 06/10/1994
5 John Stones England 28/05/1994
Midfielder
20 Ross Barkley England 05/12/1993
18 Gareth Barry England 23/02/1981
17 Muhamed Bešić Bosnia-Herzegovina 10/09/1992
15 Tom Cleverley England 12/08/1989
12 Aaron Lennon England 16/04/1987
16 James McCarthy Ireland 12/11/1990
Aiden McGeady Ireland 04/04/1986
19 Deulofeu Spain 13/03/1994
Forward
9 Arouna Koné Ivory Coast 11/11/1983
10 Romelu Lukaku Belgium 13/05/1993
11 Kevin Mirallas Belgium 05/10/1987
14 Oumar Niasse Senegal 18/04/1990
Conor McAleny England 12/08/1992
Leandro Rodríguez Uruguay 19/11/1992
Shani Tarashaj Switzerland 07/02/1995

Does need quite a lot of trimming though.

I didn't count Browning, Galloway & Pennington (or anyone younger) in my calculations of senior players. I think it further illustrates my points though. I like Aaron Lennon but do wonder if his best attribute (pace and hard work) will really be as standout in a squad that works a lot harder?

I think Niasse deserves a chance. However when you look at that squad it does look lobsided and in need of trimming, especially if we are going on a spending spree.

 

[PeterMeter]

Glaring need of a GK and still a left sided LW. Other than that I think we need to trim before we buy as there are quite a few youngsters who look ready to get minutes throughout the season as mentioned.

Hopefully Kone goes to China, McGeady I don't know who in their right mind would go for but someone needs to.

 

[Steve Wigan]

It does seem harsh Steve, but in many ways it's a by product of an unbalanced squad that has too many players in it. We currently have 22, before you mention Galloway, Browning & Pennington. That takes us to 25 before we have any signings. It's my own view that our squad is too big. I think Martinez's big issue was signing average squad players and not getting rid of enough. It meant he was forever chopping and changing. I'd much prefer us to have a more streamlined squad.

On top of that Right wing we currently have 3 (McGeady, Deulofeu & Lennon with Dowell/Mirallas who can play there) with left back having Baines, Oviedo, Garbutt & Galloway. I think we could do with a cutback in both areas. For me I'd like to see Garbutt given an opportunity and don't want to block Galloway's pathway so I can't see how we couldn't move Oviedo on if the offer was right. Similar for Lennon. If push came to shove Coleman could play further forward as well.

They are good squad players Steve, I am happy with all 3 and if they stay I won't be disappointed but I do think we need a clear out. Do you see where I am coming from with my logic? I think a lot of the easy targets have gone but we will need to cut a little deeper. Even if Stones/Lukaku leave we have 23 senior players, but maybe 5-6 you'd imagine Koeman will want to bring in. I think there are just too many players about. I also want to clear a pathway for lads like Davies, Dowell, Kenny, Ledson to have an opportunity.

You make some valid points and I suppose a lot will depend on how brutal Koeman(or whoever our new manager is!!!) is going to be. If McGeady gets a chance in the Euros he may attract an offer from somewhere...he's a journeyman in Prem terms but has done OK while out on loan in the Championship. Oviedos problem has been fitness since his big injury, Lennon I would keep because he has the ability and the brain to adapt, and has some pace. An interesting one is Del Boy. Whatever Martinez did wrong, Del Boy supported him and I suppose was grateful to Martinez...even after he had been left out for a while he issued a statement supporting our former manager. It will be fascinating to see how the new regime deals with Del...it could make him or break him. The probable new managers rep for not really playing youngsters will mean that not many of them who have had a few games under Martinez will get a look in next season, especially if the new manager brings around 4 or 5 of his own choices in. The next close season will be the important one(they are all important!) especially if we are in CL or Europa.....we will need a quality squad for the extra games.

 

[catcherintherye]

You make some valid points and I suppose a lot will depend on how brutal Koeman(or whoever our new manager is!!!) is going to be. If McGeady gets a chance in the Euros he may attract an offer from somewhere...he's a journeyman in Prem terms but has done OK while out on loan in the Championship. Oviedos problem has been fitness since his big injury, Lennon I would keep because he has the ability and the brain to adapt, and has some pace. An interesting one is Del Boy. Whatever Martinez did wrong, Del Boy supported him and I suppose was grateful to Martinez...even after he had been left out for a while he issued a statement supporting our former manager. It will be fascinating to see how the new regime deals with Del...it could make him or break him. The probable new managers rep for not really playing youngsters will mean that not many of them who have had a few games under Martinez will get a look in next season, especially if the new manager brings around 4 or 5 of his own choices in. The next close season will be the important one(they are all important!) especially if we are in CL or Europa.....we will need a quality squad for the extra games.

I think that's a fair summary. It may well be either Lennon or Deulofeu on the right as first choice and I am not sure the other will want to sit around being a squad player. I suppose I don't see Lennon as a massively clever player and I worry about his end product. Deulofeu on the other hand is a very good crosser of the ball and Koeman seems to favour that, I think he will excel. I think you are right though I can't see their being room for both, especially when you consider the emergence and form of young Keiran Dowell who must surely be pushing for a spot?

It's odd really but I think Mcgeady could be a winger Koeman may fancy. If you read my statistical analysis post about how Southampton play you see there is a strategy that centres on crosses. That is one aspect of the game Mcgeady is good at. I also think he would happily play second fiddle. We will see.

We can discuss names. I suppose what I saw in the last 8 weeks of the season were two things. Too many seasoned pro's let us down and we have a raft of young lads ready to step in and in all honesty out perform the older players. I want to see whoever the new manager is move that process forward.

 

[jackyboy]

I think that's a fair summary. It may well be either Lennon or Deulofeu on the right as first choice and I am not sure the other will want to sit around being a squad player. I suppose I don't see Lennon as a massively clever player and I worry about his end product. Deulofeu on the other hand is a very good crosser of the ball and Koeman seems to favour that, I think he will excel. I think you are right though I can't see their being room for both, especially when you consider the emergence and form of young Keiran Dowell who must surely be pushing for a spot?

It's odd really but I think Mcgeady could be a winger Koeman may fancy. If you read my statistical analysis post about how Southampton play you see there is a strategy that centres on crosses. That is one aspect of the game Mcgeady is good at. I also think he would happily play second fiddle. We will see.

We can discuss names. I suppose what I saw in the last 8 weeks of the season were two things. Too many seasoned pro's let us down and we have a raft of young lads ready to step in and in all honesty out perform the older players. I want to see whoever the new manager is move that process forward.

Could’t agree more on the Mcgeady shout. What I found peculiar was that he didn’t seem to be somebody who particularly fitted into a RM team, this being one that is focused solely on possession.

One thing Mcgeady can do albeit inconsistently is beat a man and deliver a good ball, whilst also sticking to the touchline. I think two into three doesn’t go, and if we imagine that Deulofeu will be first choice then surely one of Lennon must depart.

Same with the left backs, if Garbutt is going to make a real go of the LB role this season then I would imagine it would be at the expense of the “versatile” Oviedo. This would also hopefully see Galloway move inside and challenge Browning and Pennington for the fourth choice centre half spot. Would imagine at least one or two of these will see a championship loan next season.