Being more direct is the way to go?

[Deggo]

The argument has been we need to stop playing it about at the back so much and get it forward more quickly. We've done that today and in the cup and it's being pointed to as the reason we stopped the rot. However, this lot seems to contradict that playing more patiently across the back serves us better in terms of games won.

Passes in defensive third - 2014/15:

Win
Draw
Loss


v Leicester (A) 124
v Arsenal (H) 106
v Chelsea (H) 96
v WBA (A) 132
v Palace (H) 100
v Liverpool (A) 70
v United (A) 94
v Villa (H) 158
v Burnley (A) 164
v Swansea (H) 80
v Sunderland (A) 65
v West Ham (H) 78
v Spurs (A) 120
v Hull (H) 121
v City (A) 88
v QPR (H) 100
v Southampton (A) 45
v Stoke (H) 99
v Newcastle (A) 60
v Hull (A) 66
v City (H) 52


Average defensive third passes in games won = 126
Average defensive third passes in games drawn= 103
Average defensive third passes in games lost = 85


Thoughts?

The answer is you need to get out more davek

 

[Seamus Colemole]

If the opposition sit back and let you play passes in the defensive third, and you have players who can cope with doing that, especially when under pressure then thats how you play.

But from Spurs away onwards showed that if you press high and quick that several of our defensive players aren't up to playing their way out under pressure very well.

Other teams realised that, certain players of ours couldn't cope with the added pressure (both in terms of oppositon pressing and emotional pressure of not being disposessed), hence we weren't doing as well trying to play the same way as we were previous.

It's common sense really. And instead of persisting with us playing the same tactics when the opposition had changed theirs, we needed to change ours.

And if teams are pressing us high and we can't play out, we need to get the ball up the pitch quicker to leave them out of position. Plus, that suits several of our attacking players who like having space to run into with the ball.

It's not all about long ball or short ball, defensive thrid or final third.

It's about playing the best way with the players you have, taking into account how the opposition play and finding the best balance.

 

[davek]

we can pass 200 times at the back or 50 times, either way it doesn't affect the result

Apparently it does, statistically speaking.

Counter intuitively it looks like the more we pass across the defence the better the result.

 

[davek]

The answer is you need to get out more davek

lol

 

[Robocop]

Apparently it does, statistically speaking.

Counter intuitively it looks like the more we pass across the defence the better the result.

can you go back to last seasons results?

 

[toffeejack]

so and so, we need to match it up. the thing is, give martinez another couple of windows and we could be brilliant from the back, players like howard, jagielka and distin are why it doesn't work. get a few more stones' in and who knows? our team just lacks players making menaingful one twos for it to work at the moment, players make a pass and then move a yard to the right and then they get given it back, instead of running down the wing and drawing full backs out etc.

 

[bitter-no-better]

We lose when we are chasing games so we are obviously not going to p*ss about at the back. Recent away games at city, soton, Newcastle and hull saw us pushing forward a lot in the second half. The same today once we went 1 down.

 

[davek]

If the opposition sit back and let you play passes in the defensive third, and you have players who can cope with doing that, especially when under pressure then thats how you play.

But from Spurs away onwards showed that if you press high and quick that several of our defensive players aren't up to playing their way out under pressure very well.

Other teams realised that, certain players of ours couldn't cope with the added pressure (both in terms of oppositon pressing and emotional pressure of not being disposessed), hence we weren't doing as well trying to play the same way as we were previous.

It's common sense really. And instead of persisting with us playing the same tactics when the opposition had changed theirs, we needed to change ours.

And if teams are pressing us high and we can't play out, we need to get the ball up the pitch quicker to leave them out of position. Plus, that suits several of our attacking players who like having space to run into with the ball.

It's not all about long ball or short ball, defensive thrid or final third.

It's about playing the best way with the players you have, taking into account how the opposition play and finding the best balance.

It looks to me like the form of key players in the defence has dropped off as the season has progressed and they haven't been able to capture it again, either due to confidence or niggling injuries, and we haven't been able to maintain the tempo of the defensive third passing game that brought us some decent result up until the end of November.

In other words: it's as many of us suggested - the system is not the issue, player form is.

 

[The Equaliser]

I dont know if that's the case, but the orthodoxy on us is that we dominate possession even in a game when a team puts on an intense press...in fact, that's been THE criticism of us - so it must be true?

I think our possession stats are a lot lower this season than last, especially recently.

 

[davek]

can you go back to last seasons results?

It's pretty laborious. Ask Deggo.

 

[AlE]

For the squad of players we have, yes, we need to be more direct.

See the Everton of 2013/14 for more details. Still had lots of possession but used the ball so much more effectively

 

[marnie]

I have said it once and I WILL SAY IT AGAIN................ As soon as
STEVE TASHJIAN left us the fitness levels dropped and more and more injuries started to occur.Bring this man back at any cost.

 

[L4Everton]

Ha Ha Ha....yes, and now I'm trying facts...

Unreal.

Supposed facts*, but why change the habit of a life time? JagiDistin remember. Osman and Ferguson plotters, players trying to oust the manager by not giving your 100%, gutless midfield going backwards...etc....etc.....etc....

 

[The Equaliser]

It's not all about long ball or short ball, defensive thrid or final third.

It's about playing the best way with the players you have, taking into account how the opposition play and finding the best balance.

Spot on that - 'mixing it up' to use a well worn phrase, and adapting to the situation. Being unpredictable rather than the opposite is key. RM actually used that tactic last season on several occasions to good effect. This season you could read us like a book - hopefully that has now changed.

 

[Deggo]

It looks to me like the form of key players in the defence has dropped off as the season has progressed and they haven't been able to capture it again, either due to confidence or niggling injuries, and we haven't been able to maintain the tempo of the defensive third passing game that brought us some decent result up until the end of November.

In other words: it's as many of us suggested - the system is not the issue, player form is.

If you keep telling yourself,it will become true

Truth is we've struggle all season and towards the back end of last season,I know you don't want to accept it's down to tactics but the facts speak for themselves but I do accept injurys have not helped and poor results have then effected form and confidence