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Barca - Real Madrid

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Villarreal played Barcelona better this season than Madrid obviously did today. I just don't like how barely touching Barcelona and they start to whine.
 

Brownie said:
Note that I'm talking about even 'having a chance' against Barca. There's no doubt they are the best team in the world at the moment by quite a big margin. If you look at previous results against English teams tho, they are usually very close, at least in the scoreline. I still think Chelsea or United would have more of a chance against them than their Spanish counterparts, even this year when both of those teams are weaker.

I agree Inter were quite fortunate to get a result against them last year, but again I would still give them more of a chance than a Spanish team. I'm just emphasising the importance of the cultural differences in how football is played. The only way to beat Barca I think is to defend exceptionally well as a team and beat them with directness, physicality and speed. Once you get past the immediate closing down when they lose the ball, they are quite poor defensively. The difficult thing is to stop them having 65%+ possession. If you can do that, you can score goals against them.
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As every team would be, playing this way of closing down. It's impossible to do both elements perfectly, as most of the top forwards will beat a top defender when having a lot of space to operate, which would happen when you would somehow beat their pressing game and go forward in 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 situations.

The biggest downside of this kind of team closing down is that fatigue can be an issue in 2nd half. Surprisengly today it didn't matter, but there is a plenty of examples in the past when Barca really slowed down in later stages of matches. If score is close at that moment, you have a chance, just like Arsenal did a late run in 1st game of their last CL rivalry. But its not happening very aften.

Also, I agree about directness, physicality and speed as a ways to hurt Barca, but there's no way that you will find teams build on that kind of ingredients which will be able to stop Barca from having majority of possession. You just need to know how to defend deep and narrow, probably in two banks of 4 and anchor man between them. There are teams which are trying to press Barca higher up the pitch and are able to be solid defensively as well, even when playing higher D-line. Inter did this last season in 1st CL match and it worked well. Also, Villarreal had similar game plan a few weeks ago and even if they lost 1:3, it was a very interesting battle. But last season Barca did have Ibrahimovic over Villa and didn't have Iniesta, I probably won't be risking much saying it's kind of a big difference :).

Also, Barcelona right now is using a system when Messi is playing centrally as a "false 9" and Villa/Pedro as operating as outside (inside?) forwards, not sure how exactly it's called. The first time Barca used this kind of tactical approach in a big game it was a CL final against Manchester United, when Vidic and Rio didn't know who should they mark (as there was no centre forward close to them) and Manchester that day was far from solid defensively. Of course all the pundits in UK were too blind to notice that and they were telling Barca was playing their usual (at that time) 4-3-3- shape, which MU couldn't cope with because of a true defensive midfielder like Heargraves.
We are 1 and a half year later and still nobody figured out how defend that. Barca had to drop this system when they acquired Ibrahimowic, but because of David Villa versatility and workrate, they are playing this way again.

Edit: It was Rijkaard who first used this system in Barcelona, he was doing that when he wasn't happy with van Bronckhorst/Ronaldinho defensively (it wasn't a surprise, as one of them is full back who can't defenda and another one was a lazy magician), so he aften switched Eto'o and Ronaldinho, playing Ronaldinho as "false 9" and using Eto'o workrate to keep opposing RBs in check.
 
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chicoazul said:
I'd like to like Barca but they disappeared up their own arse a couple of years ago, and are populated by players of that detestable Spanish team.
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Christ do you not bore yourself with your anti-everything?

Just get off your moral high horse and just enjoy a sport.

You my friend are a classic Evertonian. Classic.
 

Chico is it true that Scotsmen just sit around all day fondling themselves under their kilts, not in a sexual way, just as part of custom, whilst drinking famous grouse? Tis a strange land.
 

davek said:
I think we've been down this road before when I proved once and for all that they are, in fact, Catalonian Kopites who bore the arse off people with their tika taka footy played by registered dwarfs:

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/t...arcelona-So-Annoying-quot?highlight=barcelona
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images
 
stinger said:
As every team would be, playing this way of closing down. It's impossible to do both elements perfectly, as most of the top forwards will beat a top defender when having a lot of space to operate, which would happen when you would somehow beat their pressing game and go forward in 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 situations.

The biggest downside of this kind of team closing down is that fatigue can be an issue in 2nd half. Surprisengly today it didn't matter, but there is a plenty of examples in the past when Barca really slowed down in later stages of matches. If score is close at that moment, you have a chance, just like Arsenal did a late run in 1st game of their last CL rivalry. But its not happening very aften.

Also, I agree about directness, physicality and speed as a ways to hurt Barca, but there's no way that you will find teams build on that kind of ingredients which will be able to stop Barca from having majority of possession. You just need to know how to defend deep and narrow, probably in two banks of 4 and anchor man between them. There are teams which are trying to press Barca higher up the pitch and are able to be solid defensively as well, even when playing higher D-line. Inter did this last season in 1st CL match and it worked well. Also, Villarreal had similar game plan a few weeks ago and even if they lost 1:3, it was a very interesting battle. But last season Barca did have Ibrahimovic over Villa and didn't have Iniesta, I probably won't be risking much saying it's kind of a big difference :).

Also, Barcelona right now is using a system when Messi is playing centrally as a "false 9" and Villa/Pedro as operating as outside (inside?) forwards, not sure how exactly it's called. The first time Barca used this kind of tactical approach in a big game it was a CL final against Manchester United, when Vidic and Rio didn't know who should they mark (as there was no centre forward close to them) and Manchester that day was far from solid defensively. Of course all the pundits in UK were too blind to notice that and they were telling Barca was playing their usual (at that time) 4-3-3- shape, which MU couldn't cope with because of a true defensive midfielder like Heargraves.
We are 1 and a half year later and still nobody figured out how defend that. Barca had to drop this system when they acquired Ibrahimowic, but because of David Villa versatility and workrate, they are playing this way again.

Edit: It was Rijkaard who first used this system in Barcelona, he was doing that when he wasn't happy with van Bronckhorst/Ronaldinho defensively (it wasn't a surprise, as one of them is full back who can't defenda and another one was a lazy magician), so he aften switched Eto'o and Ronaldinho, playing Ronaldinho as "false 9" and using Eto'o workrate to keep opposing RBs in check.
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Interesting stuff mate. Can you remember at all if they started playing that system before Messi was in the team? For me, he is the key, because he is so versatile. There are not many players that can play every single attacking position on the pitch at almost the same level as each other. Of course you can say this about most of their players, like Villa being out wide and Iniesta playing Villa or Xavi's position if they are out, but Messi can play all of them at once. He is the ultimate 'free role' player, that's why he's so good in this 'false 9' system.

On the quick pressure style of defending, the idea is to get the ball back as soon as possible, right? As you say, committing bodies in this way leaves the rest of the team open to 1on1s etc. if the opponent is able to keep the ball beyond the initial pressing. This is a fairly high risk strategy and I think the main reason for teams like Barca using it is because they are weak defensively. When they don't have the ball, they are very uncomfortable, so for them it is worth taking the risk.

That is part of what I mean about the attributes you need to beat them. You must be big enough and strong enough to have a large area in which you can shield the ball (a la Drogba) to resist the pressure, direct enough to use two passes when others would use five (to catch all the pressers out of position) and fast enough in movement to be able to make such direct passes possible.
 
Brownie said:
Interesting stuff mate. Can you remember at all if they started playing that system before Messi was in the team? For me, he is the key, because he is so versatile. There are not many players that can play every single attacking position on the pitch at almost the same level as each other. Of course you can say this about most of their players, like Villa being out wide and Iniesta playing Villa or Xavi's position if they are out, but Messi can play all of them at once. He is the ultimate 'free role' player, that's why he's so good in this 'false 9' system.

On the quick pressure style of defending, the idea is to get the ball back as soon as possible, right? As you say, committing bodies in this way leaves the rest of the team open to 1on1s etc. if the opponent is able to keep the ball beyond the initial pressing. This is a fairly high risk strategy and I think the main reason for teams like Barca using it is because they are weak defensively. When they don't have the ball, they are very uncomfortable, so for them it is worth taking the risk.

That is part of what I mean about the attributes you need to beat them. You must be big enough and strong enough to have a large area in which you can shield the ball (a la Drogba) to resist the pressure, direct enough to use two passes when others would use five (to catch all the pressers out of position) and fast enough in movement to be able to make such direct passes possible.
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1. Like I posted here - it was somewhere during Rijkaard era, when he wanted to make some defensive adjustments to improve his left side defensively. Eto'o as well Giuly, and later Messi, we willing to track, so he was switching Dinho with Eto'o, and allow Brazilian to act like he cares about closing down centre backs, which was still better than him acting like he cares about right back goes forward.
I am not sure if Guardiola ever did it before final against MU - maybe in some meaningless games, but nobody took notice at that time and when he suprised Ferguson with that kind of concept it was a true surprise.

2) I don't think Rinus Michaels thought defenders for Total Football will be always weak - it's just the part of the plan. Aggressive closing down, high defensive line and sweeping keeper (Valdes is absolutely fantastic in that, much better footballing player than Casillas). And right now defensive players are either bought or trained in youth system to meet this criteria (I watched a few Barca B games this season, it looks similar, starting with Valdes clone in the goal), so it's not a surprise they are not used to defend differently. Just wouldn't call them weak defensively, they are just different - there is a lot of defenders well used to defend deep, but if you would put them in high d-line they would be massacred. But you don't read about Walter Samuel or Nemanja Vidic being weak/poor. I agree that they feel uncomfortable, just see a big gap from uncomfortable to weak.

3) Understand it better now, but not sure if agree. Surprisengly Barca wasn't struggling very much when playing against Drogba (directly), maybe except for set pieces, but his presence of course helped, because against target man Barca is playing even higher d-line than usual, which allows wingers to print forward, aften even from their own half, using siminal angle for passes like Messi played to Villa for the 4th yesterday. Also Barca having Pique now makes them less vulnerable to players like that, and yet they don't have to sacrifice anything in other areas, as he has a decent quickness, is terrific positionally and he's a great ball player. I agree about point 2 and 3 in your guide to "how we can hurt Barca on the counter", but teams/players have to also have very high cohesion (to anticipate teammate's movement) and technique (to use anticipation). Of course sometimes it's just enough to hoof and it will be decent enough, but usually these days Barca is dealing very well with counter attacks.

Btw - for me to make this system work offensively Iniesta is a key, as his presence allows Messi to have a more freedom. Argentinian had to try operating in some crazy tight spaces in return game against Inter, because there was no another player, who can support him in midfield. It was a big difference last night, as Iniesta basically needs as much attention as Messi and they are playing in the same area. Maybe Mourinho tried to squeeze a space playing higher defensive line, but Real was poor picking up the runners and Xavi took advantage of that. He wouldn't be able to do run like that, if not for Iniesta and Messi ability to make a devastating pass through the middle. If it would be only Messi, things could be different.
 
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stinger said:
1. Like I posted here - it was somewhere during Rijkaard era, when he wanted to make some defensive adjustments to improve his left side defensively. Eto'o as well Giuly, and later Messi, we willing to track, so he was switching Dinho with Eto'o, and allow Brazilian to act like he cares about closing down centre backs, which was still better than him acting like he cares about right back goes forward.
I am not sure if Guardiola ever did it before final against MU - maybe in some meaningless games, but nobody took notice at that time and when he suprised Ferguson with that kind of concept it was a true surprise.

2) I don't think Rinus Michaels thought defenders for Total Football will be always weak - it's just the part of the plan. Aggressive closing down, high defensive line and sweeping keeper (Valdes is absolutely fantastic in that, much better footballing player than Casillas). And right now defensive players are either bought or trained in youth system to meet this criteria (I watched a few Barca B games this season, it looks similar, starting with Valdes clone in the goal), so it's not a surprise they are not used to defend differently. Just wouldn't call them weak defensively, they are just different - there is a lot of defenders well used to defend deep, but if you would put them in high d-line they would be massacred. But you don't read about Walter Samuel or Nemanja Vidic being weak/poor. I agree that they feel uncomfortable, just see a big gap from uncomfortable to weak.

3) Understand it better now, but not sure if agree. Surprisengly Barca wasn't struggling very much when playing against Drogba (directly), maybe except for set pieces, but his presence of course helped, because against target man Barca is playing even higher d-line than usual, which allows wingers to print forward, aften even from their own half, using siminal angle for passes like Messi played to Villa for the 4th yesterday. Also Barca having Pique now makes them less vulnerable to players like that, and yet they don't have to sacrifice anything in other areas, as he has a decent quickness, is terrific positionally and he's a great ball player. I agree about point 2 and 3 in your guide to "how we can hurt Barca on the counter", but teams/players have to also have very high cohesion (to anticipate teammate's movement) and technique (to use anticipation). Of course sometimes it's just enough to hoof and it will be decent enough, but usually these days Barca is dealing very well with counter attacks.

Btw - for me to make this system work offensively Iniesta is a key, as his presence allows Messi to have a more freedom. Argentinian had to try operating in some crazy tight spaces in return game against Inter, because there was no another player, who can support him in midfield. It was a big difference last night, as Iniesta basically needs as much attention as Messi and they are playing in the same area. Maybe Mourinho tried to squeeze a space playing higher defensive line, but Real was poor picking up the runners and Xavi took advantage of that. He wouldn't be able to do run like that, if not for Iniesta and Messi ability to make a devastating pass through the middle. If it would be only Messi, things could be different.
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letsbeatbarca.jpg


I drew you a picture mate, hope you like it. This is the kind of goal I'm imagining - not necessarily target man Drogba style holding the ball up, just making sure you use the ball immediately when you have it, rather than trying to keep possession in the playground style melee that Barca are so good at.

Let's say the right winger for the blues somehow manages to win the ball out wide near the half way line - this does happen sometimes against Barca. The main thing following that is the blues' right back having the confidence to play a pass straight to the midfielder, not many teams would do that, because clearly he will be closed down very quickly by the two red players near to him. The idea I suppose is not to turn on the ball, keep dribbling to a minimum and always play the most decisive pass - zig zags rather than triangles.
 

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