Are you satisfied with train services in the UK?

Satisfied

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 18.0%

  • No

    Votes: 37 60.7%

  • Look at you peasants using public transport

    Votes: 13 21.3%
  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Cowboy said:
Check out HS1. Have the Kent commuters on the non-HS line (ie cannot afford the extortionate HS prices) seen any benefit? Of course not. It just creates a two-tier set-up where the moneyed get a nice shiny system and the proles continue with the current rubbish service.
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They're fundamentally different lines with different objectives.
 

TomDixie said:
They're fundamentally different lines with different objectives.
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The concepts are exactly the same. Don't upgrade the existing line and make HS the new norm, create a new HS line, charge a vastly inflated fee to those who can afford it, and let the others suffer on the existing service.

If you think HS2 is going to lead to marked improvement on the existing main line, you're kidding yourself, badly.
 
The Cowboy said:
The concepts are exactly the same. Don't upgrade the existing line and make HS the new norm, create a new HS line, charge a vastly inflated fee to those who can afford it, and let the others suffer on the existing service.

If you think HS2 is going to lead to marked improvement on the existing main line, you're kidding yourself, badly.
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Hopefully the following gets the concept across.

You go from one line:
West Coast - Busiest mixed used railway in Europe.

To two lines (vastly increasing capacity) which serve different markets (thus being more efficient and improving performance/reliability):
HS2 - Long distance services.
West Coast - Stopping services and freight.

For example, when you get make a train journey between Liverpool and London, you will get a High Speed service (2 direct trains an hour). There won't be the same service offer on the West Coast to choose from (currently 1 direct train an hour). You won't be able to suffer on the existing service as it will no longer exist.

Can take this to PM though if you want to discuss it more mate.
 
TomDixie said:
Hopefully the following gets the concept across.

You go from one line:
West Coast - Busiest mixed used railway in Europe.

To two lines (vastly increasing capacity) which serve different markets (thus being more efficient and improving performance/reliability):
HS2 - Long distance services.
West Coast - Stopping services and freight.

For example, when you get make a train journey between Liverpool and London, you will get a High Speed service (2 direct trains an hour). There won't be the same service offer on the West Coast to choose from (currently 1 direct train an hour). You won't be able to suffer on the existing service as it will no longer exist.

Can take this to PM though if you want to discuss it more mate.
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The bit you're missing is that they will not charge the same prices when the long distance stuff moves over to the HS line.
 
The Cowboy said:
The bit you're missing is that they will not charge the same prices when the long distance stuff moves over to the HS line.
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Inflation aside, Ministers have committed to fares being similar to that of today I believe. What the actual fares will be I can't say, they will be set the best part of a decade from now for Phase 1 (and who knows how the industry will even be shaped then).

What I will say is that the Government will want the new service being significantly used in order to recoup costs, so fares high enough to discourage use would have an obvious disbenefit.
 

TomDixie said:
Hopefully the following gets the concept across.

You go from one line:
West Coast - Busiest mixed used railway in Europe.

To two lines (vastly increasing capacity) which serve different markets (thus being more efficient and improving performance/reliability):
HS2 - Long distance services.
West Coast - Stopping services and freight.

For example, when you get make a train journey between Liverpool and London, you will get a High Speed service (2 direct trains an hour). There won't be the same service offer on the West Coast to choose from (currently 1 direct train an hour). You won't be able to suffer on the existing service as it will no longer exist.

Can take this to PM though if you want to discuss it more mate.
Click to expand...

This would be true if they were doing HS2 as London - Liverpool, or even God forbid London - Manchester, but they aren't - they are doing London - Birmingham as the first leg, a route which already has two well-established lines (Virgin running between Euston and New St, and Chiltern running Marylebone - Moor St). It is hard to see how HS2 will be a financial success on that leg at least, given that the Virgin service will only be about 30 minutes slower, the Chiltern one is the best service in the country, and both will be far cheaper for passengers.

HS2 would only have made sense if it went London - Edinburgh direct (or maybe with one stop halfway, York maybe), which would have been competitive with airlines and would make a lot more use of the technology. As it is currently planned, its hard to see how it will work unless this is some especially devious way of bringing in the inter-city provisions of the infamous "Option A" in the Serpell Report (by spending huge sums on HS2 and then getting rid of "old" lines who duplicate the routes / cost HS2 revenue etc etc), whose route-map does look not dissimilar to the completed HS2 route.

news00333.jpg

United-Kingdom-HS2-Route-Map1.jpg
 
tsubaki said:
This would be true if they were doing HS2 as London - Liverpool, or even God forbid London - Manchester, but they aren't - they are doing London - Birmingham as the first leg, a route which already has two well-established lines (Virgin running between Euston and New St, and Chiltern running Marylebone - Moor St). It is hard to see how HS2 will be a financial success on that leg at least, given that the Virgin service will only be about 30 minutes slower, the Chiltern one is the best service in the country, and both will be far cheaper for passengers.

HS2 would only have made sense if it went London - Edinburgh direct (or maybe with one stop halfway, York maybe), which would have been competitive with airlines and would make a lot more use of the technology. As it is currently planned, its hard to see how it will work unless this is some especially devious way of bringing in the inter-city provisions of the infamous "Option A" in the Serpell Report (by spending huge sums on HS2 and then getting rid of "old" lines who duplicate the routes / cost HS2 revenue etc etc), whose route-map does look not dissimilar to the completed HS2 route.
Click to expand...

Just to address your particular concern about the success of Phase 1, which I think is unfounded anyway, they have brought forward the construction of the Fradley-Crewe section of route to 2027 from 2033. London to Birmingham will only exist by itself for one year:

Phase 1, London to Birmingham - 2026
Phase 2A, London to Crewe - 2027
 
TomDixie said:
Inflation aside, Ministers have committed to fares being similar to that of today I believe. What the actual fares will be I can't say, they will be set the best part of a decade from now for Phase 1 (and who knows how the industry will even be shaped then).

What I will say is that the Government will want the new service being significantly used in order to recoup costs, so fares high enough to discourage use would have an obvious disbenefit.
Click to expand...
HS1 is something like £2k more a year than the main line. I find it hard to believe HS2 will not follow suit. If they do remain then fair play, I will doff my cap to them.
 
Can't change my vote to no. It's a Bank Holiday, not a [Poor language removed] national disaster. How they can justify delays of up to an hour is beyond me. Fuming sat here at Birmingham New Street.
 

It clear that society favors the rich when you have to run past 2 carriages of first class seats to get to your poor ones
 

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