Cycling thread

[SerenityNigh]

Pogacar disputing the notion you need a team to win a grand tour.

Yeah, I said to my wife, that I "don't believe" Pogacar's ride today. From experience those kind of rides belong to a darker era in cycling.

I don't know much about Tadej, but I've watched a lot of American sports and PEDs only make the great greater, they don't do much for the average; I'm not a fan of cheating, much more disdain for lying like Lance, but you can't put away the fact that Lance was one of the greatest riders. And you can't take away dominant performances like today.

 

[arminisgod]

Watching now, kid riding the big ring up the hills and smashing people, that's something.

It's a throwback to the good old days of big rings, attack after attack until the skybot train sapped the life out of the spectacle.

It's no surprise, pogacars idol is Bertie

 

[SerenityNigh]

Mate... they are all juiced. Just some look brilliant doing it and others tell everyone their dominance is down to fluffy pillows

 

[arminisgod]

I don't know much about Tadej, but I've watched a lot of American sports and PEDs only make the great greater, they don't do much for the average; I'm not a fan of cheating, much more disdain for lying like Lance, but you can't put away the fact that Lance was one of the greatest riders. And you can't take away dominant performances like today.

Pogacar has won loads. Won the tour of california at 19 years old. Tireno adriatico, tour of Slovenia. Won the young giro race also.

This isn't a rag to riches rise like froome, or Chris horner. Horners win is still the greatest display of cheating I've ever seen, even more than froome

 

[arminisgod]

 

[arminisgod]

Jesus christ

 

[SerenityNigh]

Pogacar has won loads. Won the tour of california at 19 years old. Tireno adriatico, tour of Slovenia. Won the young giro race also.

This isn't a rag to riches rise like froome, or Chris horner. Horners win is still the greatest display of cheating I've ever seen, even more than froome

Yeah, I'm not arguing against him, just trying to say you don't reach great performances like this on PEDs, you have to have it in you. (Although clearly PEDs can help.) There's a simple proof for this, but no need to belabor the obvious.

 

[DaChunk]

I mean it's almost like he's returned to what he was pre Sky days...

Hmmm

Froome's never juiced. he's just finished after the injury.

 

[arminisgod]

Froome's never juiced. he's just finished after the injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

 

[Bruce Wayne]

 

[Black Belt Jones]

I don't know much about Tadej, but I've watched a lot of American sports and PEDs only make the great greater, they don't do much for the average; I'm not a fan of cheating, much more disdain for lying like Lance, but you can't put away the fact that Lance was one of the greatest riders. And you can't take away dominant performances like today.

That's not right at all mate, and 100% wrong in LAs case. He is the poster child (along with Riis) for drug use elevating a run of the mill athlete way, way above his natural level. Without the juice Lance wins a minor classic at most and isn't even in the conversation for GTs.

It's the main reason he was hated by the European cycling establishment. Not because he's an asshole, or he's an American, those things are forgiveable. It's because fundamentally he wasn't that good.

 

[SerenityNigh]

That's not right at all mate, and 100% wrong in LAs case. He is the poster child (along with Riis) for drug use elevating a run of the mill athlete way, way above his natural level. Without the juice Lance wins a minor classic at most and isn't even in the conversation for GTs.

It's the main reason he was hated by the European cycling establishment. Not because he's an asshole, or he's an American, those things are forgiveable. It's because fundamentally he wasn't that good.

PEDs don't change physiology/genes/etc, the improve the body's output. Maybe you could argue that choosing the right PEDs gives performance gains on others (Salazar) but you can't argue that Rupp and Farah had superior physiology for running prior to his influence. Obviously cheating is cheating, but in sports of endurance or those that aggregate (baseball over 162 games, TDF over 21 stages, Salah 235+ apps in 4 years) the PED boost is substantial. But back to PEDs, they can help someone who underperforms to reach their normal level or they can give marginal gains in performance to someone who is at their top level, but when you're the best the world at something the marginal gains are actually quite large (and expand the gap further than for "joes".) You're never taking an average joe and putting them on PEDs and getting world class physiology out of them, that's ridiculous.

 

[lichfieldblue]

My lad got an unused Michelton Scott bottle at the start 2 years ago. God knows what was in it, but he only had a few sips and was bouncing all day.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

PEDs don't change physiology/genes/etc, the improve the body's output. Maybe you could argue that choosing the right PEDs gives performance gains on others (Salazar) but you can't argue that Rupp and Farah had superior physiology for running prior to his influence. Obviously cheating is cheating, but in sports of endurance or those that aggregate (baseball over 162 games, TDF over 21 stages, Salah 235+ apps in 4 years) the PED boost is substantial. But back to PEDs, they can help someone who underperforms to reach their normal level or they can give marginal gains in performance to someone who is at their top level, but when you're the best the world at something the marginal gains are actually quite large (and expand the gap further than for "joes".) You're never taking an average joe and putting them on PEDs and getting world class physiology out of them, that's ridiculous.

Armstrong was a run of the mill world tour cyclist - ie absolute world class, just relatively undistinguished compared to the other 200 WT guys. A surprisingly large number of WT riders never win a race at that level - he was naturally on the periphery of the elite race winners, could prob win the odd one if things went right, but relentless PED use catapulted him to the top of that group (and almost never an actual bike race - grand Tours only).

The key thing is that athletes respond differently to drug abuse. If it was just a case of EPO gives everyone 10% then it would actually be quite a different conversation. The people who lose most to PEDs are the Pogacars and MvdPs of the world - absolute genetic mutants who would [Poor language removed] on everyone all day every day if it was pure pain y aqua racing.

A particular thing for cycling of that era also seems to have been the technology of doping - riders were experimenting with what worked and some where far ahead of others. Riis (a domestique) winning in 1996 was in hindsight a clear signal of how messed up things were, and indicates he'd cracked EPO dosing as an early adopter.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Armstrong was a run of the mill world tour cyclist - ie absolute world class, just relatively undistinguished compared to the other 200 WT guys. A surprisingly large number of WT riders never win a race at that level - he was naturally on the periphery of the elite race winners, could prob win the odd one if things went right, but relentless PED use catapulted him to the top of that group (and almost never an actual bike race - grand Tours only).

The key thing is that athletes respond differently to drug abuse. If it was just a case of EPO gives everyone 10% then it would actually be quite a different conversation. The people who lose most to PEDs are the Pogacars and MvdPs of the world - absolute genetic mutants who would [Poor language removed] on everyone all day every day if it was pure pain y aqua racing.

A particular thing for cycling of that era also seems to have been the technology of doping - riders were experimenting with what worked and some where far ahead of others. Riis (a domestique) winning in 1996 was in hindsight a clear signal of how messed up things were, and indicates he'd cracked EPO dosing as an early adopter.

It was no doubt a dark era for cycling, which has had more than its share of dark spots. Here's to heroic performances and clean sport and teams committed to "doing it right" (even if they wear Rapha).